I have one or two good condition original dual port, dual relief VW case for sale, on the samba web site. Find the ads by looking up all mine at George4888. Pictures and detailed text tell about each one. One is cut for 90.5mm and the other one is 90.5mm bore with full flow oil system machined work done. Both have case savers and have been line bored, perhaps thrust cut, but all work done professionally and other than need some cleaning as sitting in my dirty garage, they will work good for any smaller displacement engine. Not clearance for other than 74mm stroke crankshaft. Usually, the 74mm crank does not require a clearance case. So, you could build a 1904cc size engine with either case. Priced reasonable.
In 1975 AS21 aluminum cases were introduced for the T1 FI engines. The Type 4 were always aluminum (but even a very few T4 were magnesium - not sure if early ones or European ones - it wasn't many). The T4 was die cast which is better than the sand cast aftermarket T1 cases. Sand cast can have voids and oil leaks.
Gotta be hard to find a good Mag case - some say they get brittle thru years of heat/cool cycles. Plus it was never designed by VW as a performance engine case. Mag cases can be welded but must be tricky - a lot of alum cases are repaired by welding. AS21 (2 % aluminum to 1 % silicon) is preferred over AS41 aluminum cases.
Originally Posted by ALB:
Originally Posted by Ron O, 1984/2010 IM, B.C. Canada:
Teby, if aluminum cases are so bad why does CB only offer aluminum cases on their website?
I don't think magnesium cases are cast any more, Ron.
Originally Posted by Teby S:
Al, not sure what you mean.
I noticed that Aircooled.net sells both mag and aluminum cases.
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/V...p;show=50&page=1
If I had it to do again I would have gone with a mag case. I got talked into going with an aluminum case and I should have stuck to my guns.
Autolinea (in Brazil?) was the last company casting magnesium cases, but I think they stopped production a year or so ago. Other than bits of new old stock, they're unavailable. The only new cases made today are of aluminum.
Are you sure about the FI engine case being aluminum. I read they were mostly magnesium with aluminum added to form a new combination of alloy. But not aluminum. Can you give me a source reference for that data on the 1975 FI case. I am curious, as I know, I love the 1975 to 1979 FI cases and they really held up good. I think VW, in Mexico continued using the same alloy combination through their production in Mexico of the old style Beetles, through 2004. But, thought the case was mostly magnesium and those are also the ones sold by Berg, the same factory ones from Mexico and sold by others, advertised as magnesium, not aluminum, as you wrote. Just curious where you found your data. According to the data I read, the 1975 Type one FI case, AS21 was only 2% aluminum, 1% silicone and they stopped those in 1995, then went to 4% aluminum. So, where do you get calling it an aluminum case ? It was mostly magnesium up to the end of production in 2004 by the factory and the Mexico made cases, which continued from the factory in Mexico, for sale by the VW retailers, were all magnesium, until the production stopped. If you have other data and sources , please share them with me.. 93% magnesium, I would call a magnesium case, not aluminum. Thank you for reviewing you data and sources.
Since I like the magnesium case due to it's light weight, I have contacted many of the well known and popular retailers. While many still advertise they have the magnesium case for sale, when you call them or want to order one, you hear they are out of them. They never say they have none and don't expect to get any in, just they are "out of them" at the present time.
So, there is the main reason CB or others are only showing the aluminum case , for sale. And, why I started spending money for welding on my old original VW cases, which were beyond my machine and/or welding skills to repair. But, if the case I send to CA. does not have cracks, in bad places, they can weld them up and we get to save money and use the original German made case. I am always looking for the original cases, which can be recycled. Sometimes, I buy a beat up Bug, just for the engine case.
So, there is the main reason CB or others are only showing the aluminum case , for sale. And, why I started spending money for welding on my old original VW cases, which were beyond my machine and/or welding skills to repair. But, if the case I send to CA. does not have cracks, in bad places, they can weld them up and we get to save money and use the original German made case. I am always looking for the original cases, which can be recycled. Sometimes, I buy a beat up Bug, just for the engine case.
Berg wrote in his last catalog the old AS41 was good for stock use, if one built the engine correctly and controlled the heating and cooling of the engine. For any modified application, one really needs to start out with a new case, either magnesium or aluminum. New case is the answer to having better oil pressure and a longer lasting engine.
When I recycle a case, which is the old AS41, I find one with low miles on it and some only need the min. machine work. Also, I do not build up some high horsepower engine with the old case. In on the road testing from my customers I have not seen any problems with line bored cases, as Berg hated them. He wrote you lose 17hp due to the line bore. But, I have been doing this for 30 years with the same line boring device and my customer's get up to 80,000 miles off their recycled cases I use, or from reusing their own old case. So, in everyday use, I have to disagree with some of the comments or testing Gene Berg discussed. We all can agree, NEW is better. Fully machined cases are now right at $1000 to $1200, so if you can afford that added expense, buy new.
Anyone advertising some low dollar engines ( watch out on the case they use on the low cost 1915cc's) they are using old VW cases and perhaps they should not be used for a mild 1915cc engine? According to the experts, one should use a new case, only a new case.
When I recycle a case, which is the old AS41, I find one with low miles on it and some only need the min. machine work. Also, I do not build up some high horsepower engine with the old case. In on the road testing from my customers I have not seen any problems with line bored cases, as Berg hated them. He wrote you lose 17hp due to the line bore. But, I have been doing this for 30 years with the same line boring device and my customer's get up to 80,000 miles off their recycled cases I use, or from reusing their own old case. So, in everyday use, I have to disagree with some of the comments or testing Gene Berg discussed. We all can agree, NEW is better. Fully machined cases are now right at $1000 to $1200, so if you can afford that added expense, buy new.
Anyone advertising some low dollar engines ( watch out on the case they use on the low cost 1915cc's) they are using old VW cases and perhaps they should not be used for a mild 1915cc engine? According to the experts, one should use a new case, only a new case.
Here's Tech Article Gene Berg did on the cases - references the '75 FI as first AS21 engine case.
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.ph...ation&cPath=2984
The article states the cases were magnesium, not aluminum, as you stated in your post. Also, believe all the type four air cooled engines were also magnesium. They might have some aluminum and silicone mixed in the alloy combination, but for the most part, VW used magnesium as back in the day, it was readily available and easy to machine and for the weight, stronger than the available aluminum . The only difference was VW added more aluminum to the mix and that added strength to the old AS41 case, now called AS21.
The number one cause I see in causing the AS41 to warp at the main journal area for the split main bearing, was due to out of balance rods and a crankshaft which was not fully counterweighted. On our modified engines, if they are done correctly and all moving parts balanced to "race" specs, there should be little to no warping of the magnesium case where that split main bearing is located. Also, a suggested improvement, Gene Berg did was to add the wider split bearing from the type four, for more surface area, when building up a modified engine. Few crankshaft manufacturers, these days, build their crankshaft with the wider type four journal and the use of cheap chrome moly steel, as I see advertised is a bad joke.
The biggest problem , again, is not the case material, but the low quality parts, put in them, by too many of the engine builders. If you check the measurements on any of the EMPI China made replacement crankshafts, you will find they are off on the location of the timing gears and have no cross drilling for good oil flow on their stroked crankshafts and also, no radius on the edges of the rod and main journals, on their crankshaft. Really poor machine work and lousy steel they are using, but the price is not low.
I use crankshafts done by Demello or any company which can take the forged steel crankshaft and add welded on counterweights, then turn it down only .010 and race balance it. But, I mostly build only up to 1776cc size engines, as when you go bigger, finding quality stroked crankshafts which are machined properly and have the correct cross drilled oil holes and radius on the journals are hard to find. Scat's don't have the proper machine work and I have not looked at the ones from CB Performance.
The stock forged steel crank, which was made by any of the VW factory or bought and used by the VW factory was done by the same manufacturer who did the crankshafts for the Porsche engines. Really good quality. Once you go with any aftermarket crankshaft, no matter how many numbers they show for the steel or chrome moly stuff they use, the machine work is not as good as was done on the original VW factory crankshaft. To have a 74mm stroke, there are many good machine shops which can turn down a known standard VW forged steel crankshaft and then using the early Rabbit rods, from the 1600 or 1700cc engine, modify those to fit the width of the VW journals and you have , with welded on counterweights, a forged steel ( not cheap chrome moly) crankshaft with 74mm stroke and good rods. That gives you a 1904cc, not the famous 1915cc, others sell.
Properly done heads, the right cam spec and exhaust and carbs will give one more than enough horsepower in an engine for a speedster, unless you are really all about having the faster car on the block. But, there is always another person with some turbo charged 2387cc which will win, even if their engine has barely a lift span of 5000 miles. But, for 5000 miles, it rules the block.
I have never seen any of my engines have a crack behind number three cylinder on the factory old engines, I recycle. But, I only use 90.5mm cylinders, so they are not bored out as much.
On the split bearing location, with recycled old case, which had 100,000 miles on it, with my questionable line bore tool, see another 80,000 on close to stock size engines, I have built and with tear down, there showed very little wear to the case, now with 180,000 miles on it.
So, the old Chevy V8's would hold up for 300,000 and Toyota shows up to 500,000 miles on their old four cylinder engines, so our air cooled do run rather hot and last less miles. But, if we only get 100,000 miles on that new aluminum case, for me, that would be at least 10 years of driving fun.
Most of the wear, written by others, in the speedster forums is during cold start up. With the proper thermostat controls the engine can warm up properly and you extend it's life span. Race balanced moving parts add many years and miles to the engine. And, prevents that warping problem at the split bearing. Note, in most ads I read about modified engines, for sale, by reputable builders, they charge extra for "race balancing" and that is an option. Too few of the buyers want the lowest priced engine, so they go with a 1915cc with barely the equal of stock balancing and therefore, another factor in the engine not lasting as long.
Do you want 150,000 from your air cooled engine. Build it close to stock specs and put in a good forged steel counterweighted crankshaft and have the moving parts race balanced and it will hold up for those miles, with no tear down for bearing replacement. Also, use the German made or USA Clevitte brand on bearings, which cost more money. Again, you have to ask detailed questions about what quality is put into the 1915cc engines. Someone can build a good 1915cc, but the buyer usually goes with price only, so the builder gives them what they paid for, a short term engine.
I hope I made some good points in this post. Not against any size engine one has, but the point is, use quality parts and race balancing and a new case, be it magnesium or aluminum for any modified engine. Turbo charging without an intercooler, on the air cooled engine, expect small number of miles from that engine. Even with adding the expensive FI systems with the turbo charged set up, that adds few more miles you get from those $10,000 engines. But, if you have the money and want a fast speedster, for only a few miles use, buy the advertised turbo engine.
Did I beat my last post in length ? Going for the longest award on this web site. No, really trying hard to tell all what works good for them, to save people money and have them enjoy their speedster for more miles. I wish everyone reading this could take a ride in my modified 1776cc powered VW Bug, which now has about three years of drag racing use and 40,000 miles of use on the street and I can still shift it at 7500rpm and have no problems. You will question why anyone needs a bigger size engine. I did a tear down, after the three full time years of using it for drag racing and found the rod and main bearings looked so good, rebuilt the engine for street use and reused the bearings. Years later, all is good ! KS and Clevitte brands.
The number one cause I see in causing the AS41 to warp at the main journal area for the split main bearing, was due to out of balance rods and a crankshaft which was not fully counterweighted. On our modified engines, if they are done correctly and all moving parts balanced to "race" specs, there should be little to no warping of the magnesium case where that split main bearing is located. Also, a suggested improvement, Gene Berg did was to add the wider split bearing from the type four, for more surface area, when building up a modified engine. Few crankshaft manufacturers, these days, build their crankshaft with the wider type four journal and the use of cheap chrome moly steel, as I see advertised is a bad joke.
The biggest problem , again, is not the case material, but the low quality parts, put in them, by too many of the engine builders. If you check the measurements on any of the EMPI China made replacement crankshafts, you will find they are off on the location of the timing gears and have no cross drilling for good oil flow on their stroked crankshafts and also, no radius on the edges of the rod and main journals, on their crankshaft. Really poor machine work and lousy steel they are using, but the price is not low.
I use crankshafts done by Demello or any company which can take the forged steel crankshaft and add welded on counterweights, then turn it down only .010 and race balance it. But, I mostly build only up to 1776cc size engines, as when you go bigger, finding quality stroked crankshafts which are machined properly and have the correct cross drilled oil holes and radius on the journals are hard to find. Scat's don't have the proper machine work and I have not looked at the ones from CB Performance.
The stock forged steel crank, which was made by any of the VW factory or bought and used by the VW factory was done by the same manufacturer who did the crankshafts for the Porsche engines. Really good quality. Once you go with any aftermarket crankshaft, no matter how many numbers they show for the steel or chrome moly stuff they use, the machine work is not as good as was done on the original VW factory crankshaft. To have a 74mm stroke, there are many good machine shops which can turn down a known standard VW forged steel crankshaft and then using the early Rabbit rods, from the 1600 or 1700cc engine, modify those to fit the width of the VW journals and you have , with welded on counterweights, a forged steel ( not cheap chrome moly) crankshaft with 74mm stroke and good rods. That gives you a 1904cc, not the famous 1915cc, others sell.
Properly done heads, the right cam spec and exhaust and carbs will give one more than enough horsepower in an engine for a speedster, unless you are really all about having the faster car on the block. But, there is always another person with some turbo charged 2387cc which will win, even if their engine has barely a lift span of 5000 miles. But, for 5000 miles, it rules the block.
I have never seen any of my engines have a crack behind number three cylinder on the factory old engines, I recycle. But, I only use 90.5mm cylinders, so they are not bored out as much.
On the split bearing location, with recycled old case, which had 100,000 miles on it, with my questionable line bore tool, see another 80,000 on close to stock size engines, I have built and with tear down, there showed very little wear to the case, now with 180,000 miles on it.
So, the old Chevy V8's would hold up for 300,000 and Toyota shows up to 500,000 miles on their old four cylinder engines, so our air cooled do run rather hot and last less miles. But, if we only get 100,000 miles on that new aluminum case, for me, that would be at least 10 years of driving fun.
Most of the wear, written by others, in the speedster forums is during cold start up. With the proper thermostat controls the engine can warm up properly and you extend it's life span. Race balanced moving parts add many years and miles to the engine. And, prevents that warping problem at the split bearing. Note, in most ads I read about modified engines, for sale, by reputable builders, they charge extra for "race balancing" and that is an option. Too few of the buyers want the lowest priced engine, so they go with a 1915cc with barely the equal of stock balancing and therefore, another factor in the engine not lasting as long.
Do you want 150,000 from your air cooled engine. Build it close to stock specs and put in a good forged steel counterweighted crankshaft and have the moving parts race balanced and it will hold up for those miles, with no tear down for bearing replacement. Also, use the German made or USA Clevitte brand on bearings, which cost more money. Again, you have to ask detailed questions about what quality is put into the 1915cc engines. Someone can build a good 1915cc, but the buyer usually goes with price only, so the builder gives them what they paid for, a short term engine.
I hope I made some good points in this post. Not against any size engine one has, but the point is, use quality parts and race balancing and a new case, be it magnesium or aluminum for any modified engine. Turbo charging without an intercooler, on the air cooled engine, expect small number of miles from that engine. Even with adding the expensive FI systems with the turbo charged set up, that adds few more miles you get from those $10,000 engines. But, if you have the money and want a fast speedster, for only a few miles use, buy the advertised turbo engine.
Did I beat my last post in length ? Going for the longest award on this web site. No, really trying hard to tell all what works good for them, to save people money and have them enjoy their speedster for more miles. I wish everyone reading this could take a ride in my modified 1776cc powered VW Bug, which now has about three years of drag racing use and 40,000 miles of use on the street and I can still shift it at 7500rpm and have no problems. You will question why anyone needs a bigger size engine. I did a tear down, after the three full time years of using it for drag racing and found the rod and main bearings looked so good, rebuilt the engine for street use and reused the bearings. Years later, all is good ! KS and Clevitte brands.
From European Motor Works:
The type 4 engine case is cast from #319 aluminum alloy and heat treated to improve the machinability and strength. The alloy is much stronger than the magnesium used in the casting of the Type 1 style cases. The Type 4 case is also designed to withstand many more times the stress of the standard Type 1; however, the extra strength is gained at the cost of increased weight. The typically stripped Type 4 engine case weighs approximately 44 pounds, about 20 pounds heavier than a Type 1.
And here's link to the early "very rare" 1969 V and VO designated T4 411 and industrial engine cases which were indeed magnesium --- but all others are aluminium alloy.
http://72bay.blogspot.com/2014...des-and-numbers.html
I was of the impression that the type 4 cases were primarily aluminum; they are noticeably heavier than a type 1 block and a different (more expensive) casting process was used, which featured less "casting creep"? (not exactly sure of the term). This allowed less material for a better strength to weight ratio, and the smoother finish characteristic of the type 4 cases.
It wasn't a blanket statement that engines with used cases lose 17hp; Gene was referring to a specific build, which was a FAT Perf. off road racing engine. And no one uses stroked Rabbit rod cranks; the smaller journals allow for less overlap with the mains and 40 years ago these were found to not have enough rigidity. They flexed enough to cause rods to run slightly out of alignment, which put pressure on the piston pins and clips, rings, even the pistons themselves, beat up cases and wore the main bearings (especially #2) more quickly. I'm sure you know this, but the rest of the crowd here may not. Why go to such a shaky set up when a VW journalled 74mm crank needs so little clearancing?
Most guys looking for an engine for their Speedster are looking for a bigger, slightly lower revving unit (than your high winding 1776) for a reason; more torque through the bottom end/lower midrange and it's easier to take care of (less maintenance). They are looking for a combo that they can jump in at a moment's notice and drive anywhere, any time, sometimes racking up huge miles/trip. Members here have driven across the country in their Speedsters (Iron-man Stan twice!), and there's no reason a well built 2 liter (or larger) can't have acceptable life. I know a number of guys who have big mileage on larger engines- it can be done. If you build it fairly mild (power to 5500 or 6,000rpm), as many here have (or had built), even guys that didn't necessarily consider themselves "mechanically inclined" have found they could do the maintenance (oil changes, valve adjustments, setting points and timing, carb adjustments) and have bonded with their cars. And the advantage- a big, fat torque curve (power where you do most of your driving on the street) that no 1776 can duplicate. How do I know this? I've built and run a 1750 that made power to past 6500rpm (built with 90mm pistons and hand-made and ported 40x35 heads before the 90.5's and on the shelf big valve, cnc ported heads were available, for those not up on ancient VW perf history) that propelled my full weight (2,000 lbs) Cal-look street car to 14.6's in the quarter mile (and knowing what I know now, could knock another 3-4 tenths off that). No, I never stroked the engine in that car, but I've been in enough cars with stroker engines (mild and more "radical"), and there's no comparison. For easy to take care of fun on the street, there "ain't no replacement for displacement!"
I'm not trying to bust your balls, George, and I'm the first to admit that you have way more experience than me (afterall, you've been making your living at it for a good number of years, and I'm but a lowly hobbyist) but if you're going to preach to the crowd, try to keep it in context.
Thank you for the research. I knew the type four case was stronger, but for unknown reasons, thought it was magnesium. That really explains why the type four rarely needs line boring.
I hope you did not find me fighting you, but I was right about the type one, wrong on the type four. Good things to know on both of the cases and I thought the discussion was good. Have a good day. ---George K. ---
I hope you did not find me fighting you, but I was right about the type one, wrong on the type four. Good things to know on both of the cases and I thought the discussion was good. Have a good day. ---George K. ---
I agree with the larger size engine producing more low end power and torque. You should consider the weight of the speedster, I think, with driver, only about 1600 pounds ? I have not weighted mine, but know it must be lighter than the 1850 dry weight of the 1960's Beetles or the heavy 2000 pound 1974 and up Beetles. The convertible Beetles added to that with about 200 more pounds weight, just of the car, not including driver.
The numbers are fairly accurate , from the various year VW factory owner's manuals. Take or give one hundred pounds, so nobody write me about my numbers, the point is, the speedster, with driver, is a light weight car. I have often recommended my favorite engine size, the low cost 1904cc, over the 1915cc. That stroke gives you exactly what you wrote about, being low end torque and good response for daily driving.
Horsepower makes up for low end torque on a well built engine. I am getting the same horsepower numbers from my 1904cc and 1776cc engines, you read of the 1915cc and the 2.0L and bigger engines, due to putting the money into really good flowing heads, carbs and a mild cam spec. As you have raced VW engines in the past, you know the more air flow you get through the engine, that produces the horsepower. Maybe, the smaller engine needs higher rpms, but I like being able to push the MPH up to 30mph in first gear; 60mph in second; and 90mph, before going into fourth gear. You do not need as much horsepower in a light weight car and we should agree on that point, so for daily driving, when doing 30 in third gear, my engine is not being lugged down, as it has the added horsepower. But, step on the throttle pedal and off it goes, up to 90mph, if that is what you want from the engine.
I consider this a better engine for street use, for a light weight car. If we were talking here about the heavy Super Beetle convertibles which weigh in at about 2300, at least, certainly with a normal size male driver, one needs a bigger displacement engine for more torque to move the added weight. I think we agree on that point.
I built a modified type four of 2056cc displacement, rated an estimated 150hp, by FAT, based on their suggested combination of parts and this was installed into a heavy 1974 Super Beetle, fully loaded car. With the added heavy duty larger front and rear sway bars, and big driver, figure weight at 2200 pounds. The driver wanted to do 85 to 90 on I-10, the Interstate highway crossing East to West in Texas and that was his goal and it was achieved. I used the Raby DTM fan shroud and also an external oil cooler with thermostat and fan, to be sure, in 95 degree summer heat , doing 90mph, the engine would live. He told me he stayed at 80mph and higher on the 240 mile trip from where I live to San Antonio, his home town. Not sure the small 1776cc would have done that in the heavy car. I think we are in agreement, just don't underestimate what the small engine can produce, in horsepower and certainly does rev up faster and has more rpm range.
Personally, I like the rpm range, as with a 3:88 R and P, which I have in my Rat Rod, and also, in my speedster, more rpm equals really good high cruising speeds. I have driven my air cooled many times from Texas to CA. and back, 1800 miles one way on that route. I used to drive 250 miles from my home to Dallas and race the 1776cc, win, then drive it home, the 250 miles, with no problems.
Cost wise, and for quality parts, one can do better with the smaller engine. But, just my opinion. I mentioned but everyone probably think I am on drugs, the bottom end of my present 1776cc is safe up to 11,000 rpm, due to the best parts I could buy. When racing it, shifts were at 9500 or higher. With the present 110 cam, which is a mild street grind, the valve springs and cam spec will not allow me to go over the 8000 limit of the present valve spring spec. It pulls really strong from 1000 to 6500, a nice range of rpm. I can putt around town doing 35mph in 4th. What more does one want from an engine , then bury the 100mph speedometer in 4th.
My last Beetle, with a modified 1776cc street engine was clocked at doing a top speed of 115mph, faster than anyone really needs to go. I rarely drive over the speed limit. That was in a full size all metal 1970 Bug.
Someone wrote about experience. One can have one year of experience and knowledge and just repeat that for the next 30 years or have 30 years of experience with continued learning through those 30 years. I like the latter part of that last sentence. Learning continues , say the Eastern religions, then once you understand why man is on the planet, you die and more on to a different body form. Hopefully, I will never stop learning, therefore, never die. Just wishful thinking .
The numbers are fairly accurate , from the various year VW factory owner's manuals. Take or give one hundred pounds, so nobody write me about my numbers, the point is, the speedster, with driver, is a light weight car. I have often recommended my favorite engine size, the low cost 1904cc, over the 1915cc. That stroke gives you exactly what you wrote about, being low end torque and good response for daily driving.
Horsepower makes up for low end torque on a well built engine. I am getting the same horsepower numbers from my 1904cc and 1776cc engines, you read of the 1915cc and the 2.0L and bigger engines, due to putting the money into really good flowing heads, carbs and a mild cam spec. As you have raced VW engines in the past, you know the more air flow you get through the engine, that produces the horsepower. Maybe, the smaller engine needs higher rpms, but I like being able to push the MPH up to 30mph in first gear; 60mph in second; and 90mph, before going into fourth gear. You do not need as much horsepower in a light weight car and we should agree on that point, so for daily driving, when doing 30 in third gear, my engine is not being lugged down, as it has the added horsepower. But, step on the throttle pedal and off it goes, up to 90mph, if that is what you want from the engine.
I consider this a better engine for street use, for a light weight car. If we were talking here about the heavy Super Beetle convertibles which weigh in at about 2300, at least, certainly with a normal size male driver, one needs a bigger displacement engine for more torque to move the added weight. I think we agree on that point.
I built a modified type four of 2056cc displacement, rated an estimated 150hp, by FAT, based on their suggested combination of parts and this was installed into a heavy 1974 Super Beetle, fully loaded car. With the added heavy duty larger front and rear sway bars, and big driver, figure weight at 2200 pounds. The driver wanted to do 85 to 90 on I-10, the Interstate highway crossing East to West in Texas and that was his goal and it was achieved. I used the Raby DTM fan shroud and also an external oil cooler with thermostat and fan, to be sure, in 95 degree summer heat , doing 90mph, the engine would live. He told me he stayed at 80mph and higher on the 240 mile trip from where I live to San Antonio, his home town. Not sure the small 1776cc would have done that in the heavy car. I think we are in agreement, just don't underestimate what the small engine can produce, in horsepower and certainly does rev up faster and has more rpm range.
Personally, I like the rpm range, as with a 3:88 R and P, which I have in my Rat Rod, and also, in my speedster, more rpm equals really good high cruising speeds. I have driven my air cooled many times from Texas to CA. and back, 1800 miles one way on that route. I used to drive 250 miles from my home to Dallas and race the 1776cc, win, then drive it home, the 250 miles, with no problems.
Cost wise, and for quality parts, one can do better with the smaller engine. But, just my opinion. I mentioned but everyone probably think I am on drugs, the bottom end of my present 1776cc is safe up to 11,000 rpm, due to the best parts I could buy. When racing it, shifts were at 9500 or higher. With the present 110 cam, which is a mild street grind, the valve springs and cam spec will not allow me to go over the 8000 limit of the present valve spring spec. It pulls really strong from 1000 to 6500, a nice range of rpm. I can putt around town doing 35mph in 4th. What more does one want from an engine , then bury the 100mph speedometer in 4th.
My last Beetle, with a modified 1776cc street engine was clocked at doing a top speed of 115mph, faster than anyone really needs to go. I rarely drive over the speed limit. That was in a full size all metal 1970 Bug.
Someone wrote about experience. One can have one year of experience and knowledge and just repeat that for the next 30 years or have 30 years of experience with continued learning through those 30 years. I like the latter part of that last sentence. Learning continues , say the Eastern religions, then once you understand why man is on the planet, you die and more on to a different body form. Hopefully, I will never stop learning, therefore, never die. Just wishful thinking .
It's not just how much hp you can wring out of it, George, but at what rpm you have to take it to, and the consequenses of revving it that high. Rev an engine that high on a regular basis and it will need new valve springs every winter (if you drive it a fair bit and want it to always be it's best) and the heads (guides seats, and maybe the odd valve) looked at more often as well. An engine that makes it's most power somewhere above 6500 or 7,000 rpm isn't a "driver". It may be in a street legal car and feared at the local drive in on Friday and Saturday nights, but it's not a car you would drive up the coast or part way across the country on regular weekends. You'd spend almost as much time with the engine out of the car as you would driving. And you know all this, as you've but an Engle W110 cam in the engine to detune it so it will have some life.
I also know (as do you) that the hp potential of a set of heads is the same on your 1776 as on any 1904, 1968, 2007, 2054, 2165 etc. If a set of heads (40x35mm valves with the proper port work, for eg.) has 180 hp potential, the rpm's that hp figure is reached in a 1776 (9,000rpm? 9500?) will be different than a 2180, 2332 or 2386 (6,000? 6500?). Again, I know you know that. My point is that for reliability's sake, most guys here would rather have the bigger torque curve and lower rpm limit (again, where most of these things spend their life on the street) of a bigger engine; it's easier to take care of and also HARDER TO BREAK! So many of these people aren't interested in engines that rev to the moon and the increased maintenance that comes with it. It's one thing to do regular maintenance (oil changes, valve adjustments, the odd point and timing adjustment if they haven't yet gone to electronic ignition) and bond with your car, but I don't think many of these people want to be doing top end rebuilds every winter. If you're on here long enough you'll see a pattern- guy buys car with smaller engine, has a ton of fun, either drives or gets a ride in a Speedster with a bigger engine and realizes what a ton MORE fun said bigger engine is and starts making plans to upgrade...
Again, anything 2 literish (or over) with some properly ported stock valve heads (good) or done 40x35 heads (better!!
) that makes power to 5500 or 6,000rpm just seems so right in these cars.
And don't even try to tell me your 9500 or 10,000rpm 1776 has gone 40,000 miles and the heads have never been off....
I LIKE CAKE!!
and the heads have never been off......
They may very well have come off but not in the usual unbolt method :~)
Yup the screws are loose and the nuts have all fallen out...
Will, I am sorry but you may have to start another thread and keep us up to date.
We'll let these two have this one.
Bill, I like your sense of humor, seriously!
In response to overwhelming demand - well ok, Will asked - here's a video of the Vintage Speed exhaust on my VS with 2024cc mild stroker motor.
I actually got out and drove it on some nearby twisties rather than just revving it in my driveway. I think this gives a better feel for what it's like to live with.
If you're looking to impress Scooter and Mary Jane at the drive-in on Saturday night, if you feel gonadally deficient and need to somehow compensate, if you need to strike fear in the hearts of everyone waiting for the light to change, if you need to radiate coolness with the mere twitch of your toe, this ain't the puppy for you.
I got this thing because I knew I'd never get an A-1 sidewinder down my steep and perilous driveway without leaving expensive metal scrapings all along the way. It's neat, tucked in, well-made, and looks kinda stock, sorta. And, as it turns out, it sounds, well, sorta stock, too - which I think is what it was designed to do.
I may be down a few horsies, but there's still plenty of low-end torque to let me more than stay with traffic. And besides, I like the low-pitched growl, so there.
I mounted the camera up against the windshield to minimize wind noise, but there's still some, which makes the camera turn down the sound level a little. The exhaust is about as loud as it sounds at the very beginning, when I'm starting off from rest.
Bon Appetite.
Originally Posted by Will Hesch:
Bill, I like your sense of humor, seriously!
All in good fun guys, you have to take this group with a grain of salt, sometimes a lime wedge and a shot of Tequila...
...set 'em up Gordon! I need a drink!...
Mitch, that makes me want to drive my Speedster, looks like Paso Robles, sounds like...Heaven!
Will, getting these cars on the road is all about patience. Hang in there, and the day will come. Your wait will probably be a lot shorter than mine was.
And somehow, the waiting makes you appreciate the drive even more.
And that's all I have to say on this, folks; back to the regularly scheduled programming!
And I'll take one of those shots...
Never said in race only form, it went 40,000 miles. After I rebuilt the race engine , for street use, dropped the CR from 12.5 down to 8:1 and put on less ported heads, I have put 40,000 miles on it, since race days, three years ago. The heads have not come off this engine, since rebuilt.
You guys must be using questionable parts. Look at the web site for RD Spring Company in the USA. I have their valves in my 1776cc street engine, too often run it up over 6000 as above that really not producing more HP, only more rpm's, and there have been zero problems. I ran the same springs in the race only set up for one year, when testing the suspension and other things on the car, and these dual springs, per the RD Spring engineering department are only good up to 8000. Now, any valve spring will develop some wear, but if you use the best you can buy, and set up the rocker arm geometry correctly, keep the valve adjustment at the right gap ( and I only adjust them at stock intervals ) I do not understand the "you need more maintenance" comments. What, more than stock ? Why ? The parts are designed for higher rpm use, than I push the engine up to, so I have a big margin for allowance on how good and long lasting the parts will be. I limit my engines to not more than 500 rpm, below their max. power range and/or rpm limit of the valve train. Stop buying springs made in China with poor quality steel.
On the need for bigger engines. Look at CB Performance numbers for their 1776cc engine kit. Pat Downs showed HP rating of 105. They don't give all the details on what parts were in the tested engine. So, the stock 1600cc dual port might have , if built to 1971 specs, 60hp and with a good tuned exhaust, say 64hp on the engine, not at the wheels. Go up to 105hp and if I know the math to be correct, that is more than a 50% increase in horsepower and you have the engine in the lighter weight speedster. I just don't understand the need for a bigger engine.
Are all you guys trying to drag race your speedster against Corvettes or the high output Camaro or Dodges ? Or, going for top speed wins, as I doubt that is happening, so for doing 70mph on the highway, 105hp from a CB Performance 1776cc is enough. I wrote I estimated mine has 120, only due to really good heads, which are ported and polished 42X37.5 with match ported manifolds and really free flowing exhaust, race balanced engine parts and more Berg and Pauter and Competition Engineering and Jaycee parts, you can think about. So, at about 6500, pretty sure, based on performance on the street, it should have at least 120, only 15 more than the CB advertised kit engine. This is realistic.
I have real Porsche adjustment valve screws in my engine. They cost $175, for the eight screws, but they don't break. Too many parts to list here, but you guys are not seeing the big picture about what all the manufacturing companies are doing with smaller engines these days. Review how the Japan made motorcycles have been kicking Harley Davidson for too many years, with small engines and lots of rpm range.
I like the toy friction cars, the ones you roll backwards and get the flywheel wound up, then, let them take off on the floor. My car represents this concept. Wind it up and it does stay together, due to really good engine build and quality parts, then pop the clutch and away I go, beating everyone with bigger VW engines. Well, it does upset many, who think bigger is better. Ever watch Formula One racing or Indy 500 ? For many years, Honda engines were beating all the other engines. These are small engines, set up for over 13,000 rpm, running wide open for 500 miles.
If all the car companies thought going bigger was the answer to producing more horsepower, they would be doing this, but with new technology, bigger is not needed. Just the best parts and you have more horsepower and a long lasting engine. No maintenance problems. I have to remind myself to check my oil level on my engine as it uses very little. I have the cheapest EMPI push rod tubes with German seals. See, sometimes, you don't need to spend lots of money to find a product which works. I have tested every known push rod tube I know of and these are the lowest priced ones and work great, last forever and I use them on both stock engines and my expensive modified engines.
To each his own. If you lived close to me, I would invite you to take a ride in my small engine VW car. That would convince you small can work good and last a long time. Here is one last thing I do for my customers, asking me to build them a big cc engine for their VW. I give them a ride in my Bug, with the 1776cc. I promise you when the test ride is over, they are convinced they do not need more horsepower or speed which this engine pushes my car up to. Most just say " George, I don't need an engine or car that is this fast". So, I build them a good smaller engine and they are very happy customers. In the heavy Beetles.
You guys must be using questionable parts. Look at the web site for RD Spring Company in the USA. I have their valves in my 1776cc street engine, too often run it up over 6000 as above that really not producing more HP, only more rpm's, and there have been zero problems. I ran the same springs in the race only set up for one year, when testing the suspension and other things on the car, and these dual springs, per the RD Spring engineering department are only good up to 8000. Now, any valve spring will develop some wear, but if you use the best you can buy, and set up the rocker arm geometry correctly, keep the valve adjustment at the right gap ( and I only adjust them at stock intervals ) I do not understand the "you need more maintenance" comments. What, more than stock ? Why ? The parts are designed for higher rpm use, than I push the engine up to, so I have a big margin for allowance on how good and long lasting the parts will be. I limit my engines to not more than 500 rpm, below their max. power range and/or rpm limit of the valve train. Stop buying springs made in China with poor quality steel.
On the need for bigger engines. Look at CB Performance numbers for their 1776cc engine kit. Pat Downs showed HP rating of 105. They don't give all the details on what parts were in the tested engine. So, the stock 1600cc dual port might have , if built to 1971 specs, 60hp and with a good tuned exhaust, say 64hp on the engine, not at the wheels. Go up to 105hp and if I know the math to be correct, that is more than a 50% increase in horsepower and you have the engine in the lighter weight speedster. I just don't understand the need for a bigger engine.
Are all you guys trying to drag race your speedster against Corvettes or the high output Camaro or Dodges ? Or, going for top speed wins, as I doubt that is happening, so for doing 70mph on the highway, 105hp from a CB Performance 1776cc is enough. I wrote I estimated mine has 120, only due to really good heads, which are ported and polished 42X37.5 with match ported manifolds and really free flowing exhaust, race balanced engine parts and more Berg and Pauter and Competition Engineering and Jaycee parts, you can think about. So, at about 6500, pretty sure, based on performance on the street, it should have at least 120, only 15 more than the CB advertised kit engine. This is realistic.
I have real Porsche adjustment valve screws in my engine. They cost $175, for the eight screws, but they don't break. Too many parts to list here, but you guys are not seeing the big picture about what all the manufacturing companies are doing with smaller engines these days. Review how the Japan made motorcycles have been kicking Harley Davidson for too many years, with small engines and lots of rpm range.
I like the toy friction cars, the ones you roll backwards and get the flywheel wound up, then, let them take off on the floor. My car represents this concept. Wind it up and it does stay together, due to really good engine build and quality parts, then pop the clutch and away I go, beating everyone with bigger VW engines. Well, it does upset many, who think bigger is better. Ever watch Formula One racing or Indy 500 ? For many years, Honda engines were beating all the other engines. These are small engines, set up for over 13,000 rpm, running wide open for 500 miles.
If all the car companies thought going bigger was the answer to producing more horsepower, they would be doing this, but with new technology, bigger is not needed. Just the best parts and you have more horsepower and a long lasting engine. No maintenance problems. I have to remind myself to check my oil level on my engine as it uses very little. I have the cheapest EMPI push rod tubes with German seals. See, sometimes, you don't need to spend lots of money to find a product which works. I have tested every known push rod tube I know of and these are the lowest priced ones and work great, last forever and I use them on both stock engines and my expensive modified engines.
To each his own. If you lived close to me, I would invite you to take a ride in my small engine VW car. That would convince you small can work good and last a long time. Here is one last thing I do for my customers, asking me to build them a big cc engine for their VW. I give them a ride in my Bug, with the 1776cc. I promise you when the test ride is over, they are convinced they do not need more horsepower or speed which this engine pushes my car up to. Most just say " George, I don't need an engine or car that is this fast". So, I build them a good smaller engine and they are very happy customers. In the heavy Beetles.
Gordon, the 914 seats fit good in my speedster, I had to cut some off the front angle iron pieces, to fit my floor pan and drill a few new holes in those pieces, but I really like these seats. I will be cruising in style. --George K. ----
I recommend someone read what produces Torque in an automobile engine, as there seems to be some misunderstanding on these engineering principles. Bigger adds to torque, but there are other ways to increase torque numbers with smaller engines.
Here is a free tid-bit of data, from on the track testing. I found with the stock Beetle, say weight of 2000 pounds, with driver, when we dropped off each 100 pounds of weight, off the car, we gained 2/10 to 3/10 of one second reduced ET on actual track runs. This continued until we were into the mid 14's in the 1/4 mile, then there was less improvement with lower times, with each additional 100 pounds of weight removed. There are many other factors which come into play, due to physics.
I said, with the light weight speedster, I do not see the need for a large engine, only one with about 100 to 120 horsepower, unless you plan to race every one you see, on the street. I am looking forward to getting a certified scale reading on MY speedster, to better understand what to expect in performance from it.
I like racing, but only on the track. I have owned many real Porsche cars, all which did at least 140 mph. I do not like going fast, like over 80mph. Too dangerous ! I want to live another 20 years. Wait until you reach my age and you will understand my motives. Old man of 70, here.
Here is a free tid-bit of data, from on the track testing. I found with the stock Beetle, say weight of 2000 pounds, with driver, when we dropped off each 100 pounds of weight, off the car, we gained 2/10 to 3/10 of one second reduced ET on actual track runs. This continued until we were into the mid 14's in the 1/4 mile, then there was less improvement with lower times, with each additional 100 pounds of weight removed. There are many other factors which come into play, due to physics.
I said, with the light weight speedster, I do not see the need for a large engine, only one with about 100 to 120 horsepower, unless you plan to race every one you see, on the street. I am looking forward to getting a certified scale reading on MY speedster, to better understand what to expect in performance from it.
I like racing, but only on the track. I have owned many real Porsche cars, all which did at least 140 mph. I do not like going fast, like over 80mph. Too dangerous ! I want to live another 20 years. Wait until you reach my age and you will understand my motives. Old man of 70, here.
I think it would be best if we both accept that we have different opinions, and that's alright....
Time to put your cocks away boys...
That's what I'm trying to do here, Bill...
It would be a boring world, if all thought like I do. I do enjoy what you offer to the web site. Really like your comments. ---George K. ---
Will:
I've been on vacation for most of the bloviating, but just picked this up again. Yikes.
I'd like to make one thing perfectly clear before throwing anything else out there: I am not an expert on any of this, and do not claim to be.
For the general record:
I made a couple of "off-forum" suggestions for Will to consider (or not). Of all of the things I was recommending, this is the least important. Each case has it's advantages. The AS41 is lighter and has fewer "as cast" issues, but I've got an Auto-Linea bubble-top AL case for the 2110 and it's fine. The AL cases are beefier-- but the mag case problems of yesteryear have largely been corrected, and they're lighter and cool better.
It's like that with a lot of stuff. A guy picks his parts, and makes the trade-offs. Acting like there is only one orthodox way to do it is silly.
The Auto-Linea AL case is a fine piece of casting. It's stronger and heavier than the mag case. It runs warmer. It's a better choice for some applications (maybe Will's, I don't know). Some other applications seem better with a nice, new mag case (assuming one can be obtained). I like the mag case a bit better in a speedster because the car needs all the cooling help it can get, less weight out back is better, and very few guys are looking to get 100K mi out of an engine before pulling it apart. That's a good thing, because they likely won't.
I don't really like chicken pot pie. Jim does. That's cool too.
The Magnesium case is readily available today. In fact, Volkswagen rebuilt all of the tooling. The cases are made for VW by a company called Rima, you will see this name on all of the new cases. The quality is excellent, as good as any case ever manufactured by VW.
The only issue is that they are expensive. A distributor pays the same cost for a Mag case as they retail an aluminum case for.
CB Performance did the original design for the aluminum case, I have the prototype to prove it. The case was leaked out to everyone with some small changes. Our uses 6 shuffle pins and can be purchased with 8mm or 10mm case savers.
The aluminum case has it's purpose, it's strong, and universal. It will except large stroke crankshafts, it's full flowed from the factory, filled in behind #3 cylinder. It's drawbacks are heat, You can guarantee yourself at least 20 degrees higher oil temps using it. Heat is the biggest issue I fight on daily driver performance engines. Adding 20 degrees oil temp is huge, I can't justify doing that to a customer to get an engine sale by saving cost.
Thanks for the info, Pat.
Thank you Pat , for the update and information. So, nice to know , if money is not the issue, someone is making the magnesium cases. --George K.----
Pat, are you saying that an aluminum cases is not a good choice for a daily driver?
I think it is clear what Pat is saying is that one needs to consider the added oil temperatures, which you might see.
I have used both aluminum and magnesium cases. On the aluminum cases, I built conservative size engines, low compression and with plenty of cooling for the oil. I do not like the exhaust set up whereby the muffler is located under the number 1-2 ( passenger) side of the engine and close to the valve cover and push rod tubes. Consider in testing, we find the muffler to have between 250F and 300F degrees, with a normal operating air cooled engine and who wants to put that much heat, generated on the surface of the muffler, possibly into the push rod tubes and head and valve cover, to add to the overheating problems we face all the time with the air cooled engines ? The oil flows through the push rod tubes, back to the case and I don't want to add more heat to the returning oil.
So, for daily driving, keep your engine simple, small, with all the VW factory sheet metal and the dog house oil cooler plus an external oil cooler, low compression ( read under 8.5:1) and with proper dual carb tuning and good air flow to the engine compartment, there should be no problem using the aluminum case. For me, the weight factor is important as I was into racing and we are insane people when you discuss one to two pounds.
Ever change out steel washers to aluminum ones, to save weight on a car ? I have ! I cannot find a good low cost source for METRIC aluminum bolts and nuts and would only use them in low torque hardware areas, but still looking, to save weight. The big boys use Titanium bolts on the race cars. Now, that is getting serious about weight.
People on this web site said the aluminum case has about 20 to 30 pounds more weight. That added metal thickness is needed to provide the same strength as the magnesium case. Some de-burring was needed inside the aluminum cases I bought and on one of them, I had to grind off some of the case material for clearance of the counterweighted crankshaft. Without the grinding and clearance work, many parts would have hit the insides of the case and actually, on one alum. case, I could not turn the crankshaft, until some clearance problems were solved.
For high performance VW engines, I like the magnesium case, for lower operating temperatures as I am running higher compression ratios on my modified engine, so that produces more heat. More pressure in the cylinders = higher temperatures. It's basic physics. Not enough high school students are taking physics and it is a wonderful course, to explain so many things we use in our daily lives.
With proper insight, the aluminum case can live with daily use is my opinion. Proper tuning, low CR, nice oil cooling system, etc.
---George K. ---
I have used both aluminum and magnesium cases. On the aluminum cases, I built conservative size engines, low compression and with plenty of cooling for the oil. I do not like the exhaust set up whereby the muffler is located under the number 1-2 ( passenger) side of the engine and close to the valve cover and push rod tubes. Consider in testing, we find the muffler to have between 250F and 300F degrees, with a normal operating air cooled engine and who wants to put that much heat, generated on the surface of the muffler, possibly into the push rod tubes and head and valve cover, to add to the overheating problems we face all the time with the air cooled engines ? The oil flows through the push rod tubes, back to the case and I don't want to add more heat to the returning oil.
So, for daily driving, keep your engine simple, small, with all the VW factory sheet metal and the dog house oil cooler plus an external oil cooler, low compression ( read under 8.5:1) and with proper dual carb tuning and good air flow to the engine compartment, there should be no problem using the aluminum case. For me, the weight factor is important as I was into racing and we are insane people when you discuss one to two pounds.
Ever change out steel washers to aluminum ones, to save weight on a car ? I have ! I cannot find a good low cost source for METRIC aluminum bolts and nuts and would only use them in low torque hardware areas, but still looking, to save weight. The big boys use Titanium bolts on the race cars. Now, that is getting serious about weight.
People on this web site said the aluminum case has about 20 to 30 pounds more weight. That added metal thickness is needed to provide the same strength as the magnesium case. Some de-burring was needed inside the aluminum cases I bought and on one of them, I had to grind off some of the case material for clearance of the counterweighted crankshaft. Without the grinding and clearance work, many parts would have hit the insides of the case and actually, on one alum. case, I could not turn the crankshaft, until some clearance problems were solved.
For high performance VW engines, I like the magnesium case, for lower operating temperatures as I am running higher compression ratios on my modified engine, so that produces more heat. More pressure in the cylinders = higher temperatures. It's basic physics. Not enough high school students are taking physics and it is a wonderful course, to explain so many things we use in our daily lives.
With proper insight, the aluminum case can live with daily use is my opinion. Proper tuning, low CR, nice oil cooling system, etc.
---George K. ---
Ron, IMO, the aluminum case should not be used for daily driver street engines. In colder climates, you will be OK using one but in climates where you will see 90+ degree summer temps, no way.
CB still has Magnesium cases but we only sell them in our Builders Choice engine kits.
Here is a 2005cc engine I just finished for a daily driver. This customer wanted a little more power than the norm so I used a better flowing head and a little more duration on the cam. Exhaust is an 1-1/2 A-1 sidewinder and carbs are 44 IDF Weber with 34mm venturi's. If I were to use a cam with less duration, the torque curve would be much lower but I communicate with ever customer about their needs and this combination was the best for him.
Sorry about the wavy curve, my water tank for the dyno was a little low, hence the wavy graph.
Pat Downs
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