https://www.jbugs.com/product/...ISNz3cxoCaooQAvD_BwE
Would these work on my 2017 Vintage Spyder
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Phil,
Those will not work.
Greg
Thanks Greg.
Wouldn’t the question be rather… If the caliper can work with the discs you have then the bracket is the only thing you have to work out IMO, On my IM Phil, I have Empi Rotohubs which use the P 120x5 pattern, we did not use the Empi calipers but we used a VW jetta golf rear caliper with parking brake. I would think that is the question that you could ask Greg, but hey what do I know 
J bugs has another set that will work , the one you posted is for a Super Beetle ,
You want the one for a standard bug.
He has Wide 5s, guys. Any ghia-style caliper isn’t going to work.
I guess in the US the beetle (before super beetle) never had disc brakes. That’s going to make it tough to find any upgrades for my brakes. Really just interested in the front brakes. But I know some of the bigger displacement original beetles in Europe had front disc brakes. I guess where I’m going is…does anyone know of any front brake upgrades for my Spyder. That’s without changing anything major like the wheels or the front suspension. Finding vented and drilled rotors with a ceramic pad upgrade without changing the calibers would be ideal. I just did this on my Turbo Fiat 500 and the difference is noticeable.
I don’t think so. Danny does which allowed him to upgrade his brakes. I just thought someone might make vented and drilled rotors for a classic VW wide 5.
Assuming this won’t work.
@550 Phil posted:I don’t think so. Danny does which allowed him to upgrade his brakes. I just thought someone might make vented and drilled rotors for a classic VW wide 5.
Assuming this won’t work.
I'm not sure if anyone is making a vented rotor for a wide 5, because the rotor is thick, probably close to 7/8". Drilled and slotted rotors are available on some kits, and are approximately 3/8" wide. AirKewld claims their kit pushes the wheels out 3/8", but I think Danny found it was closer to 3/4"? CB makes a nice kit, but theirs pushes the wheels out 7/8". Good luck in your search!
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@550 Phil , I just checked and a Fiat 500 weighs about 2400 lbs — so, what, maybe 600-800 lbs more than the Spyder? (And with the engine over the front wheels.)
Do you really need more brakes?
I've got basic EMPI (4-wheel) discs in my Speedy, and can lock up the fronts pretty much whenever I don't want to. And I've never seen a hint of fade, driving on the street, even in some genuinely mountainous terrain.
Sure, basic discs are a good idea for any car, but there are probably good reasons why there doesn't seem to be much of a market for high performance discs for the aircooled VW.
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Thanks. Think I’ll just try to find some nice pads.
With wide-5 and a ball joint front end, there is no such thing as "zero offset" or stock width using drum brake spindles(which is what Phil has). There are also no kits made that use a Ghia disc brake spindle and a wide-5 bolt pattern. There isn't enough room, especially for a bolt on kit. Which is why they are ALL wider to some extent.
With the drum brake spindle, the caliper bracket has to bolt where the very thin(1/16" or so?) drum backing plate goes. Then you have the thickness of the rotor and the required thickness of the caliper.
But the biggest reason is the Wide5 bolt pattern, which must be about 1/2" thick or more to handle the rolling/cornering/stopping forces.
The link-pin(pre-66) front ends do have just enough room for stock width. Brake kits that aren't iron barbells(think custom-machined aluminum hub) are going to cost $1500 to $2200, just for the front axle.
The caliper brackets are custom made and move the caliper INBOARD about 1/2", which leaves room for the rotors and bolt patterns to all just fit.
Hi , if you have a stock ball joint front end can you narrow the front end 1-2 inches to run wide 5 front discs ? it now has ghia spindles but they can be switched to standard bug if needed.
And are there any wide 5 pattern disc kits ?
And is all this so a 4 1/2 inch wide rim fits or ?
This would be on a IM Convert D pan car , not a Spyder
Thanks for the info ,
@imperial posted:Hi , if you have a stock ball joint front end can you narrow the front end 1-2 inches to run wide 5 front discs ? it now has ghia spindles but they can be switched to standard bug if needed. Yes, but not while it's in the car. Narrowing the beam is kind of the ultimate solution, but there are a lot of people running wide-5 disc brakes with standard width beams. You shouldn't need to narrow the beam to run a wide-5 front brake, even though the bake kits add width. You will want drum brake ball-joint spindles, not Ghia spindles. Keep in mind that drop spindles also add width. The combined width add of the brake kit and the dropped spindles puts it into "unknown" for me, but I'm still thinking there's room.
It's the back that has most of the issues with space. With a Wide-5 kit, you'll absolutely run out of room in the back unless you narrow the trailing arms.
And are there any wide 5 pattern disc kits ? There are lots of places. Empi makes one, SoCal makes one, CBP makes one, CSP makes one, Mendeola makes one, AirKewld makes one, etc. The only thing limiting you is money. The Airkewld kit uses Wilwood DynaLite 4-piston calipers, most of the others use a single-piston sliding caliper (because of the width).
And is all this so a 4 1/2 inch wide rim fits or ? No, this is so you can run 5-1/2"s.
This would be on a IM Convert D pan car , not a Spyder
Thanks for the info ,
@DannyP posted:Brake kits that aren't iron barbells(think custom-machined aluminum hub) are going to cost $1500 to $2200, just for the front axle.
CBP's Wide 5 kit uses an aluminum hub and is $1080 for ball-joint, $668 for link-pin.
CBP also has a redesigned rear kit with a steel spline an aluminum hub now for $1006. It's a new kit, as of this year.
These are the kits I'd get if I were running Wide 5. If you want Wilwood, it's gonna cost a lot more.
Thanks for the CBP info on the front discs ,
Does anyone use Wide 5 rear Drums for IRS ?
Maybe from a VW 181 Thing or early type3 Squareback. both were 5x205mm
Decades ago you could buy front and rear drums that were made with the 5x130 mm pattern so you could run Porsche 911Fuchs alloys, I had them on my Cal Look bug
@Stan Galat posted:CBP's Wide 5 kit uses an aluminum hub and is $1080 for ball-joint, $668 for link-pin.
CBP also has a redesigned rear kit with a steel spline an aluminum hub now for $1006. It's a new kit, as of this year.
I have both of those CB brake kits. What is crazy is that the front kit was $550 in 2021! Talk about inflation.
@imperial posted:Decades ago you could buy front and rear drums that were made with the 5x130 mm pattern so you could run Porsche 911Fuchs alloys, I had them on my Cal Look bug
Still can. EMPI makes a kit that everybody uses -- it has drillings for both Porsche and Chevy 5-lug. Again CBP has a couple of options -- they have a roto-hub option which is just like the EMPI, and they have a nice option with aluminum hubs and removable discs as well.
I used the better ones when I went from Wide 5 to late Porsche drilled hubs so I could run 16" wheels and get good tires. I got a conversion caliper bracket from a guy on TheSamba so I could run Wilwood DynaLite calipers on the front. It was only after I had gone down the rabbit-hole that I found the guy who had the 16" wide-5s made and CBP came out with a rear brake kit that actually didn't tear the hubs out (I was on my 3rd or 4th set of rear hubs with the old kit). I could have had what I wanted, if I'd have waited.
To square the circle and get back to Wilwoods -- in my experience, with a car this light, the juice is not worth the squeeze to try to get to Wilwood DynaLites, and the calipers Phil linked are just Ghia replacements made out of aluminum instead of cast iron.
I could lock the brakes with a single-piston caliper, and I can still lock them with Wilwoods.
@LI-Rick posted:I have both of those CB brake kits. What is crazy is that the front kit was $550 in 2021! Talk about inflation.
Right. I had the old-style rear and the front kit.
They were in the $500 neighborhood for the better part of 20 years, then (like everything else in this "price stable" economy) they doubled.
When you start to compare the number of pistons and the surface area of the pads and the discs… you might be surprised that the big name stuff is overkill and the front will lock up so the law of diminishing returns is active very fast.
@IaM-Ray posted:When you start to compare the number of pistons and the surface area of the pads and the discs… you might be surprised that the big name stuff is overkill and the front will lock up so the law of diminishing returns is active very fast.
I can tell you this — every aftermarket VW rear disc brake kit needs more caliper or the system needs a proportioning valve, which is why Henry figured out the calipers on the back of your car.
Any idea what they are?
Yes he compared the 911 front end brakes and then the rear brakes of early cars and he found a Rabbit rear brake mk-iv had the same surface area and piston size as early 911, go figure, and you get a parking brake to boot without the cost bump. Of course there is a proportioning valve as you mentioned Stan. I like Henrie’s attitude, why try to reinvent the wheel...
Ray, it's the same rear caliper that EVERYONE uses. It works just fine but it is a heavy iron one. My Spyder has no proportioning valve. It simply uses the MC that Airkewld provides, which is the 20.6mm that was talked about in the OTHER thread about brakes.
The thing with Phil here is the torsion beam is WELDED into a Spyder chassis. And I hate to say I told you so, but I did. My car has a 2" narrowed beam, it was the first Spyder to be so equipped. I recommended the AIrkewld CNC machined aluminum hubs and drilled iron rotors and Wilwood calipers. And I definitely recommended the 2" narrowed beam, making each side 1" narrower, and allowing ANY brake kit. I believe that the Airkewld kit is 7/8" wider per side, which is just about perfect.
@DannyP posted:Ray, it's the same rear caliper that EVERYONE uses. It works just fine but it is a heavy iron one.
It's not, Danny -- Henry figured out that there wasn't enough piston in the rear (for a Speedster, anyway) and started putting different calipers on about 15 years ago. I thought it was a BMW caliper, but it could be a VW Golf. It takes a custom caliper bracket.
Several years back, Henry bought a car he'd built for an older gentleman who passed away. The widow lived about 2 hrs from me, and Henry and his daughter flew in and drove the car home. He spent the night at my place and used the lift to go over the car. I noticed the calipers and asked, but didn't think to write down what they were.
I just looked at CB Performance and ALL their wide5 brake kits for stock spindles increase track width by 7/8" PER SIDE.
There ain't no free lunch.
Sorry, I didn't know that Henry used different ones. Maybe they are the same as mine. They are custom welded and powdercoated brackets. My brake bias is perfect. I'm not lacking in the rear brake department, or the front either. The Airkewld stuff is designed for Bugs and such.
@Stan Galat posted:It's not, Danny -- Henry figured out that there wasn't enough piston in the rear (for a Speedster, anyway) and started putting different calipers on about 15 years ago. I thought it was a BMW caliper, but it could be a VW Golf. It takes a custom caliper bracket.
Several years back, Henry bought a car he'd built for an older gentleman who passed away. The widow lived about 2 hrs from me, and Henry and his daughter flew in and drove the car home. He spent the night at my place and used the lift to go over the car. I noticed the calipers and asked, but didn't think to write down what they were.
FYI The stock empi calipers are not what he uses at least not when you ask him for better rear brakes, and yes the brackets had to be modified to fit on my new IM ..
On my IM 2004 AC- Front VW: Type III disc pad no: D56 (2 pin type)
Rear: Porsche 914 rotor, VW Golf caliper, pads 0719
Master: VW Golf Booster/master 192-612-105C
@DannyP posted:I just looked at CB Performance and ALL their wide5 brake kits for stock spindles increase track width by 7/8" PER SIDE.
There ain't no free lunch.
Sorry, I didn't know that Henry used different ones. Maybe they are the same as mine. They are custom welded and powdercoated brackets. My brake bias is perfect. I'm not lacking in the rear brake department, or the front either. The Airkewld stuff is designed for Bugs and such.
I’m well aware that the CBP kits add 7/8” — I had them. I was just trying to point out that they aren’t the cast iron barbell plates that get put on by almost everybody (for some inexplicable reason), and they don’t cost $2000 (although they don’t use DynaLite calipers either). Maybe the barbell plates add less track, I don’t know— I was never interested enough to check them out.
Out back, Henry made his own caliper brackets for the EMPI-style 4-lug and late-Porsche drilled rear brakes (wide-5 got the barbells, for whatever reason).
I’m not sure what AirKewld is using, I just know that Henry’s setup was all him.
Stan, I'm 100% sure you knew. I was just pointing it out for those that are weighing options.
Yes I remember having the conversation with Danny about using the narrowed beam to allow the upgraded brakes. I had the same conversation with Greg. I don’t track my car and I really don’t have issues with the current brakes. They will lockup in a heart beat. I’ve taken the car on long drives and trips in the mountains and I’ve never had a hint of fade. Maybe if I tracked the car like Danny does they might develop some fade. I recently warped my rotors on my Fiat 500 during 20 hard hours near and on the Back of the Dragon. My Spyder pads will soon need replacing. I just thought someone might make a bolt in set of drilled and slotted rotors with some ceramic pads. Obviously there is not enough demand or need for such an upgrade. What pads are recommended for stock VW brakes like the ones on my car?
Fender clearance seems to be a problem in all Speedsters and Spyders if one wants to run larger tires and/or wheels. Wide 5 disc brake kits just exacerbate the issue. I don’t understand why the manufacturers of these cars don’t use a 2” narrowed beam, almost as a default. The only issue I see is a slight increase in turning radius, and an increase in the spring rate. Sway bars are even available for the narrowed front ends
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@DannyP posted:...having good brakes is a safety item for me, even if I NEVER use them to their full potential...
Danny, I think having good brakes is a safety item for all of us, whether we race or not.
My biggest gripe with my brakes, though, is how easy it is to use them to their full potential. I use them to their 'full potential' all the time. The problem is how low that potential is with them configured the way they are. The hardware that most of us have already installed is capable of much more braking than it's being allowed to deliver, set up the way it is.
As you've pointed out many times, it's all in proper front-to-rear biasing, which, like the weather, everyone talks about without actually doing much about.
I know that I would need to change the front to back proportioning somehow, but just how to do it without getting it dangerously wrong seems to be a subject not discussed often enough. So, most of us just leave well enough alone and learn how to ease off before the fronts start chirping.
Our cars are no heavier than VW bugs were, and most of us already have much better braking hardware as it is. If it were better regulated, I'm guessing that's all the braking most of us would ever need.
The modern cars that have huge discs, multiple pucks, and slotted rotors probably need all that stuff. They weigh thousands of pounds more and have monster tires that can put the extra braking force down. And they all have, ahem, computer controlled modulation, working independently at all four corners, to put all that good stuff to work.
I think I can help here. We set brake bias all the time on the Vees, especially after a shoe/pad change, but AFTER bedding the shoes in.
We use two master cylinders and a mechanical balance bar on our cars. Most guys have a cable that is cockpit adjustable. That's not practical on street VW-based cars, as there isn't a whole bunch of room. And once the bias is set on a street car, it doesn't need changing. So we can use a proportioning valve on the rear brake line, to reduce the pressure. Put it in the cabin where is can be reached by the driver.
You'll need all 4 wheels off the ground, a proportioning valve(or 2), and a friend.
You have your friend press the brake pedal until the front wheels just lock, and hold it there. Then you move to the rear wheels and try to turn them. When the bias is correct, you should JUST be able to rotate the rear tires.
Most of the time, the rear pressure needs to be reduced so the rears lock just after the fronts. There are some cases depending on caliper/wheel cylinder size where there is too much front pressure. In that case a valve should be installed on the front line.
RE:Good Brakes
The whole reason I changed my brakes was I experienced brake fade ON THE STREET. I had CSP solid front discs(single piston GM caliper) and rear drums(wider shoes and bigger wheel cylinders from a type3).
We were in PA on a Pumpkin run. I was hooning a bit, and had heat in the brakes from several corners before. I went toward a corner at 80mph and hit the pedal and NOTHING happened. Thankfully I made the corner! I changed the fluid every year or every other at the very least.
So for me this setup was inadequate, and I invested in a better package.
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Danny, thanks for this.
I must say, I thought the solution would be to reduce line pressure to the fronts so that the rears work a little harder before the fronts starts to lock and thus transfer more weight to the front by the time the fronts engage.
On motorcycles (or at least motorcycles before they had ABS), you're taught to feather in the rear brake a little first, before getting on the front hard, to start that weight transfer forward and to increase the 'normal' force pushing the front wheel against the paving. Locking up the front on a MC is even more exciting than in the Speedy.
Maybe I'm overthinking this. Maybe I'm just plain wrong.
That happens sometimes.
Also, does a typical Speedy have more rearward weight bias than a Spyder? By a lot?
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@Sacto Mitch posted:....
Also, does a typical Speedy have more rearward weight bias than a Spyder? By a lot?.
When Danny had his scales at Carlisle and we all weighed our cars I found that my car was an even 1700 pounds with a 39%/61% rearward bias. @DannyP, do you remember the numbers for your car? I imagine they were quite a bit more even front-to-rear.
Mitch, most Spyders are in the 45% front and 55% rear range, within a couple percent.
IM and Beck were a bit more rear-biased than Spyders.
I found that pan-based cars were closer to 35% F and 65% R, but you have to measure each car. So yes, Speedys do have more rear weight bias as a rule.
You'll know you have too much rear brake when the back end decides to overtake the front in a HARD application, just before lockup, AKA threshold braking.
The only time you'll want the rears working harder than normal is in the rain. By pushing bias rearward you'll lock the fronts less, but also the rears have more traction in the rain because the fronts push the water out of the way.
Good brake discussion... don't forget engine trail braking to factor into the bias equation (more so on rwd & rear/mid engine cars).
On a motorcycle you (the rider) are the proportioning valve because there is a front brake lever and rear brake lever. I can brake so hard with the front brake and sticky tires on a motorcycle the rear wheel is off the ground and still not locked on the front. With not-so-sticky tire the front starts to lock before the rear lifts.
Moto-Guzzi (and a few others) tried something where you pull the front brake lever and got 4 (of 6) front pistons and 2 (smaller of 4) rear pistons. Then when you used the rear brake lever you got the other 2 front pistons and the 2 larger rear pistons. It was smooth on the street under regular conditions, but I never really like the implementation because I wanted to be able to control all the front and all the rear separately.
on a car there is 1 brake actuator, so some biasing likely needs to be done. With rear weight bias of the speedy, I suspect the car actually needs more rear bias than a front engine car, but likely still not even f to r. what that bias % is I don't know but I like Danny's idea of a valve to set.
some of the biasing is already done by the size difference between front and rear calipers/rotors. The basic equation within the brake system being F(orce)=P(ressure)*A(rea) if the pressure in the brake line is the same (ie no proportioning), then the bigger piston area on the front caliper will produce more clamping force than those of the rear caliper. Thus you have a built in bias.
Then there's leverage of the rotor diameter, where larger rotor provides that clamping force more leverage to resist rotation.
Larger surface are of the rotor allows the rotor to cool faster and provide more surface swept distance for the friction surface between pads & rotors. (win-win)
let's go back to the chrysler mini-van... the HD brake rotor is 330 vs 308. There are 2 pistons instead of 1 ( I haven't calculated the areas exactly but there close enough in size that there is MORE area on the 2 piston) and then the pads are larger in both directions (swept depth and width)
OE "standard" 1st image.. OE HD 2nd image and OE pads in last image Standard on right side of pad image...
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Wrenn, some really good points.
I don't think engine braking is a really big factor unless you're in a heavily-loaded corner, and at that point you wouldn't be on the brakes at all. I will say that on track the cars are WAY more stable under maintenance throttle(or more) than off-throttle.
And I don't want people to mistake engine braking(you called it engine trail braking) with actual trail-braking, where you start to turn in AS you are easing off the brake.
Rear brake bias adjustment isn't as important on the street as it is on the track. When you're on the brakes, 80% of the braking is on the fronts. So in my mind a bias change in the rear doesn't do as much as the fronts which are doing 4X the work.
And you are exactly right about the sizing of front vs. rear hydraulics. VW drums use a 19mm front wheel cylinder vs. 17mm in the rear. Plus the front shoes are wider than the rear. Porsche had two wheel cylinders on each front wheel on the 356 for more front braking, plus all the drums were larger than VW diameter and wider.
Agree engine braking is very minor in a car (but still could be part of the equation).. It's more pronounced on 2 wheels were the contact patch is so small. Remember, I can have the front braking so hard (with good tires) the rear is barely making contact with the pavement & at that point any engine braking could cause the rear tire to slide.. and begin to step out to a side, hopefully the rider is talented enough to pick the side. When this is done right, it makes for a great block pass and helps rotate the through the turn.. when done wrong, well let's just say it usually hurts.
I used to ride an R100, so I clearly understand how powerful engine braking is on a bike. I think it's more powerful because bikes are so light in addition to the small contact patch.
I never rode hard enough to worry about doing the things you did, for sure.
A couple weeks ago I watched(from about 5 car-lengths behind) a moron tailgate a car. I waved him by a minute earlier, as it appeared he wanted to lick my rear window. When the car directly in front of him slowed down HARD for a delivery truck, our Kenny Roberts wannabe only grabbed a big handful of front brake(I specifically watched his right foot NOT move). Since he reacted late and was about 6 feet from the car, he ended up high siding into the back of the car he was tailgating. Instead of grabbing both brakes in a straight line, he only grabbed the front, but tried to turn and go around the car under threshold braking. He almost got away with it. The high side was at such a slow speed he didn't even really get hurt, except he was wearing a T-shirt so his elbows and hands got it a little.
I stopped, asked if he was OK, and picked up the bike. I moved it to the side of the rode, put the kickstand down and turned the key off. I don't think there was any damage to the car he bounced off of. His brake and clutch levers and bar ends were scuffed. After he calmed down a little, I told him he wasn't at the track. Maybe it helped, but probably not. He'll probably kill himself. He looked like he was definitely under 25. I doubt he'll see 30.
We didn't stick around, since I wasn't involved directly.