WTF?? -- Gas in the oil -- URGENT

Will appreciate any advice.  Pls do not hesitate.

And I think I have figured the smoke/not smoke aspect.  First, the crankcase is just about full of mostly gas and some oil.  I have a breather tube that runs from oil filler to one of the carbs.  Put your foot into it, and the rise in crankcase pressure pushes the gas/oil right on up and out that breather and right back into the carb and combustion chamber.  and I know that it takes very little oil to make a huge amount of smoke.  The top of that carb is really wet. 

If the Baron is going to make Carlisle, I'm gonna need my experts pulling with me on this one.  I wonder if I have a spare carb top gasket, or where I might get one like in no time??

Fraz....are you running a mechanical fuel pump ? I just googled   "what would cause gas to get into the oil sump old VW"  and it brought up Rob and Dave's aircooled page. They suggested the likely culprit to be a ruptured diaphragm in the fuel pump...

Had floats stick open twice on my 550 (float pin misaligned and got stuck when rebuilding the carbs) and once on the 356.

Yes, you should be able to just take the top end of the carb/s off to check the float. On the 356 I had the front end up higher than the rear. The car was just sitting and I saw some fluid on the ground. Thought that was strange. So I checked the oil and like you it was high and smelled of gas.  I took the offending carb top off and did a top rebuild using a new needle valve, checked the float clearance, flushed the sump at least 4 times to get all the fuel/oil mix out then added new oil. All was well, could have been bad though. So my lesson learned on the 356 or the 550 is never park with the fuel tank higher than the carbs and always be sure the float pin is aligned evenly.

Good luck Frazoo.

Pete

If stock mechanical pump..possible bad diaphragm in the fuel pump  ? Stuck float or float filled with gas and it sunk in the bowl allowing the needle valve to remain open 

With your pressure at 3psi, it shouldn't be pressure related.  That is a good number for Webers. I'd look into a worn needle/seat or a stuck float.

Do you have genuine Webers or the China HPMX 44IDF knockoffs?  If the latter, I'd start by getting a genuine rebuild kit, which includes a new needle/seat, and change them out, while you are in there measure the float height and drop just to be sure.

Also make sure your float didn't get eaten up or cracked and is sinking.

Regardless of whether or not you get this fixed this shouldn't be an excuse not to come.  We DO allow folks to attend in non-Speedsters, you know.  Ahem, you might even know some of us, I mean them.

Here's complete rebuild kit at CB - $30 w/floats

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3279.htm

Wolfy, That is a very complete kit.  TYxs for the link. I have been in the carbs previously, and turns out have some rebuild kit parts on hand.  Perhaps enough to get through this top end refurb.  I suspect the carbs are not "original" whatever that means.  Everything else on this JPS was from China, so why not these??  Fuel pump is electric.  If I turn it on, and the float is stuck open, should I see gas running down the venturi?  I will do this experiment straight off and report back.  And I do have about a week to get this figured out.  and will arrive at Carlisle either with or without the car.

Any chance this was a one-time thing?  And the float is now resettled?  I just ran the car a few weeks ago for a nice outing, and it worked properly.

How about this flushing the motor business?  I mean, there was a LOT of gas in there, and is all drained out now. I'm going to say the engine inside was full to the top.  And what does flushing mean?  Flush with what?  I thought maybe I'd fill with oil to proper level, with new filter, drive it around until it warms up a bit, drain that oil, retain the filter, and refill.  Good to go.  Would that work?  Seems to me with only a very small residual amt of gas in there the new oil would be fine, and the gas would eventually cook off, being more volatile.  What say yee, experts??

"Oh dear, what can I do?
Kelly's in black and Gordon's in Blue
Tell me, oh what can I do?"  -  with a nod to "The Beatles"

1. What is the possibility that said stuck float valve was stuck only like one time, and might now be unstuck and all is jake?  

Somewhat low, unless you've removed the pilot valve assembly, blown out the valve seat with compressed air, checked the tip of the valve shaft (usually black Viton material or plain metal end) for any crud/dings and either said "It looks OK to use" or you have replaced the entire valve/shaft assembly with a new one that's pristene.

2. Can the carb tops (44IDFs) be lifted insitu to inspect/clean/refurb the floats?  wrt 1., if I turn on my electric fuel pump with engine off and look down the throats, and the float valve is still stuck open, will I see the gas running out??  PS:  I have a pressure gauge on the fuel system, and the pressure is ~ 3 psi.

Yeah, probably, but it might be just a dribble and hard to see - certainly try, anyway.  It won't be both carbs, probably just one and that'll help you find the offending one.  No sense disturbing a good one if you can avoid it.   Once the carb top is off, look in to the bottom of the bowl to see if there's a lot of crud at the bottom and clean that as best you can.  Also you'll be setting float height with the top off, right?  Always reset float height with a new Pilot Valve Assy.

On flushing the case - Let's not go nuts, here.  You've already flushed the case by driving home.  The oil light came on because you oil viscosity was around 1W-10 or so. If you drain out what's in there (let it drain for an hour or so) and replace it with new oil and new filter you should be good to go.  Whatever gas is left in there might be a tablespoon at most and should evaporate off on your first drive or so.  I don't see a need to re-drain and re-fill......Just drive it.

Under the circumstances (not a long distance and a slow drive home) I would not expect to see any appreciable cylinder wall or ring damage.  The rings may even seat better after this than before. (I thought you could use some good news, there....) and the bearings had some sort of fluid pressure, even though it was thin fluid, so they should be OK, too.

And I have about two days to get to the bottom of this one.

Then get your ass in gear and FIX IT!

And of course I am worried sick about scoring of my cylinders and harm to the bearings.  any ideas about that??

Sorry.  Wife tells me I'm outa time and "Get back to work!"   See notes above.....

Oh, one more thing......Most of the "rotary" electric fuel pumps will siphon through when not running, meaning that if the tank was full and the fuel level was high enough (or the car was on a slight incline) the tank will slowly drain through the electric pump if the pilot valve(s) leak.  A tiny leak over time will overflow the bowl(s) and end up oin the sump - but you know that..   Those clickity-klack solenoid pumps (like a Facet) don't seem to flow through when not running.  (Not that I would run one, anyway....)

Gordon: copy all.  Can't see any dribble in either of the four throats.  Pressure gauge on fuel system bleeds off to zero in about a minute or two once I turn the key off.  Never really checked before, but seems to me it would hold the pressure for longer than that when things were "normal" -- not sure anything with this car/engine has ever been "normal", at least if so, never for long.  ANYWAY, will pop a top and see what I can see further.  The sump has drained overnight so should be pretty damn dry in there, and as you have said, the solution was mighty thin, so it should have rinsed off the walls pretty good.  So a crap shoot about which side.  Will assume right side, since this is where the oil breather discharges and as mentioned, it is a pretty wet mess at the moment.  Oh goody: get to take my Five Cent Racing Heim joint linkage apart again, and the rebalance it after.  Fortunately, that's not too bad a deal.

On my Spyder I learned to keep a small vice grip handy to cut off all fuel to the carbs. As soon as I hit the key the e-pump immediately filled up the 3/4 carb the side were my main fuel line come out then T's to the 1/2 carb ( I set my regulator at 2.5lbs). I cut off the e-pump but there's still enough pressure to over flow the carb with fuel but with the small vice grip you can cut it off quickly unless you have metal lines. Mine are all new rubber lines.  I knew the float pin in my case was the issue not the needle so I really was careful on replacing the top end of the carbs after that lesson. 

For my case flush on the Speedster I just used cheap oil until all gas odor was gone then put in new Brad Pen.

Wolf that is a good kit you posted the link to.

Gordon,

Are you going to be able to bring your Heim link kit for me to Carlisle?  My plan is to be there on Saturday fro the whole day unless bad weather then I will pick the best day to go weather wise.

Thanks

Pete

I had this happen as well...

Turned out to be the needle/seat valve as mentioned above. It back flowed into the crankcase the same as you experienced. After replacement of the valve I installed a small shutoff valve under the tank and if left sitting for more then a few minutes I just shut it off - good security system as well and 5 or 6 bucks at Home Depot/Lowes/Auto Zone. It is an inline mower shutoff valve. 

It will never happen again even if the carb valve fails again at some point. 

Engine was OK

Thinking about it - you could even do this short term till you get the item fixed.

When you pull the carb top of and if there's crud in the bottom of the float bowl. Might be worth replacing the small brass pump exhaust valve at the bottom whilst in there.

I had a similar problems fuel dripping from pump jets when engine was of, diaphragm was good, replaced needle valve and re set floats but still continued dripping. In my case it turned out to be the pump exhaust valve at the bottom. You may be able to blast it with some carb cleaner but for what they cost new it could cost you stripping the carb tops of again if it still continues. Also pull the pump jet holder screw out and blast them with carb cleaner. There is also a ball valve in them which is easier to flush out with carb cleaner.

Once i'd done the above it cured the dripping for me anyway.

quick update, work in progress.  I ordered two of those kits, even tho I have some old rebuild kits on hand, and could get new parts in both carbs from this stock if I have to.  Want to see the new kit and examine the parts.  Hope they get here PDQ. Popped the rt side top, and things were really messy there, w/ the crankcase breather having dumped a lot of oil/gas all over the place.  Looked at it after top off, and said, you know, WTF, cleaning this up in situ is going to be a bee-atch, so may as well do the full Monty, so pulled the carb and we are going all out.  Should have done that from the get go, as when I lifted the top in situ, one of my Jet Doctor tubes dropped out and down, hit the tin, I heard it, and is currently AWOL.  Can't find it anywhere, but have not done a thorough search.  If I had just pulled the whole carb at first, this would not have happened.  Murphy at it again.  If it can, and it will really piss you off, it will.  And so it did.  Lane: Said Jet Doctor is made of brass, so now I too have a brass thingie in the wind, although I at least did notice it disappear, and know what it is, and have a good idea about where it must be, and also understand where to put it, if/when I find it.

Note: float needle valve is all brass, and the replacement ones on hand have the little rubber tip on them, and seem to be a better deal.

Going to do both sides because, well WTF again, why not?  No better time than now, right?? And if I only do one, then Old Murphy is going to get a second chance at me, and the fault will for sure be in the other carb. And am seriously thinking of just routing that breather hose down to the ground, and out the back.  I mean why not??  The way its plumbed now, oily "air" gets all over that carb top, and is noteably grungier after a while than the one on the other side.  So aside from incurring the wrath of the EPA, why not just dump crankcase fumes to the outside?  Is that not the way millions of cars did it way back when??

One thing to check in your rebuild kits if you have a kit that includes the entire float valve needle and it's seat/housing. My kit had different sized float needle valve seat/housing and perhaps the needle size was slightly different too. I noticed sizes stamped on the side of the housing. In my kit they were 200 the originals were 175 openings.

Pete 

Just an aside: a speedster with a full gas tank has a fuel level higher than the float-bowls in the carb, so the pump doesn't have to be siphoning (or whatever) to fill the crankcase with fuel in the event of a needle/seat failure. 

That's why a shut off valve is a good idea for those times (like extended storage) when you'd rather not rely on a brass needle on a brass seat to keep your $10K engine from filling up with 93 octane. 

Kelly - Is your breather plumbed like one in this diagram?  Active polluting lines go into breather at bottom, there is foam or bronze pot scrubber in breather, and exit line to carb are at the top. The catch/dump can might be overkill - but good use of your favorite beer can.

This is CB Performance version (with cover off) that operates the same - entry at bottom, exit at top. It looks similar to 356 set up. Note the stainless steel pot scrubber filter.

The pot scrubber isn't really a "filter".  Everything is gaseous and has to go uphill from the case/sump to the breather.  The purpose of the Pot Scrubber is to give the oil molecules suspended in the crankcase vapor a place to attach to on the way by.  Once enough has landed on the scrubber mesh it condenses back to a liquid and runs downhill to the filler port, while the remaining, mostly-oil-free crankcase gas goes UP to the vent to the carb(s).  The scrubber just makes the separation process more efficient, as opposed to those little wings sticking out in the CB box, or nothing at all inside.

Kelly, if, on a normal basis, you have a lot of oil film in whichever carb has the breather vent hose going to it, certainly try the pot scrubber trick in your breather.  Get the stainless steel version.

OTOH, just running the vent down to the ground works, too (VW did that for several million cars until the EPA wouldn't let them anymore), but you lose the small amount of vacuum provided by the carb(s) to pull the vapor out.

My hook up is nothing like either of the separators shown.  I actually have a Bug Pak (would be like what Wolfy has shown) but not installed.  Only diff is the dump can is just a return to the engine sump.

I have a hose tap in my oil filler stack, and a rubber hose that goes right to the top of the rt hand carb.  Boom, simple. My oil filler is also a dog-leg (vs OEM straight) pipe that makes putting oil in SO much easier.  And I fully understand the separation process here,with pot scrubber mesh, etc.  Don't think the BugPak uses that, but maybe.  I have resisted install of this on account of all the extra piping required, including tapping the valve covers.  Makes for a very busy and funky looking engine compartment, IMHO.  Maybe function overrules aesthetics in this case.  For short term, believe I will be an EPA scofflaw and dump to atmosphere.  Then will  go figure out a way to provide recirculating breathing, properly separated.

Rebuild kits due tomorrow, meanwhile will be toking up on carb cleaner in the garage getting ready.

And what about that little check valve for the accelerator pump/jets at bottom of the float chamber?  Does this ever really go bad??  I will clean and inspect.  Wonder if this item is part of the complete rebuild kits I have ordered.  We'll see.  So many brass thingies to keep track of . . .

You go Kelly, Get even with EPA for the damn ethanol mandate!

Hey!  It's been 24 arduous hours, here.  WHAT'S HAPPN'IN ?!?!?!?!?!  

You just sittin' around waitin' for parts or sumthin???

"And what about that little check valve for the accelerator pump/jets at bottom of the float chamber?  Does this ever really go bad??  I will clean and inspect.  Wonder if this item is part of the complete rebuild kits I have ordered.  We'll see. " 

Isn't the same valve Richard Maxwell, over in the UK, just changed out?  Personally, I would probably pop them out and clean them, but I believe Richard got new ones in his rebuild kits.

"So many brass thingies to keep track of . . ."

You've got THAT right!

He must be tinkering in the garage Gordon

These are the little suckers at the bottom of the float bowl. Cheap enough to replace.

 For the sharp eyed, What's the difference??

ummmmmm.......The one on the right has some green crud in it?

Glass vs Steel ball?

Yes, this brass fitting is where I'm a little stumped.  There is this little brass thingie in the bottom of the bowl.  Close inspection after removal reveals what looks like a little tab tucked into the bottom of it.  Not sure what that is for.  Does not move.  Sprayed carb cleaner all about and the cleaner goes in and out just fine.  blow on either end of this thing and it passes the air in either direction.  So I am stumped.  WTF is this thing supposed to do?  If it is a check valve (one way flow only) the one I have removed and cleaned does not function that way.  Also, regrettably, there was no replacement for this valve in my super duty rebuild kit which just arrived.  So, I am at a loss to know anything reasonable about this brass thingie.  If it is not a check valve (and I believe the accelerator jet system ought to have a one-way check valve in the sequence somewhere, then where the F is it, and how is the accelerator jet system going to work in this brass thingie does not check the flow?  So, the more I find out, the less I know for sure.  And if this thing is faulty where do I get a replacement like in zero time??

Not sure if we're talking the same thing without pic's of where your's is coming from but JayCee's has this.

http://www.jayceevw.com/store/...ll_Needle_Valve.html

Pete

Need pics Kelly

This below from the CB website, where one of these brass thingies is shown.  So it is (or is suppsed to be) a diode, and the one I have does not behave that way,  Seems like.  Damn.  Woulda/coulda/shouda had them pack two of these in the box that just arrived.  Not sure I can wait for another shipment. Fudge . . .

"The secret is out! Weber IDF Zero Bypass valves are the key to making your single IDF carburetor snap to attention. The zero bypass does not allow any fuel back into the float bowl from the accelerator pump circuit, instead all of the fuel is shot out of the accelerator pump jet when you hit the throttle. With the long runners associated with a single carb application this is key to help eliminate off idle stumble and flat spots during acceleration."

Alan, MTFLYR: not that. but this:

Quick update: fussed a fiddled with the one in there, carb cleaner all over the place, poked it with a stiff fine wire, (a strand from a wire brush works very well in this regard) riggled and jiggled, and got it to work -- sometimes. Is currently soaking in solvent.  Maybe it can be good.  Sitting at the bottom of the bowl like it does, its going to get whatever gunk goes in there. Sure would like to have new one, like tomorrow.

RichardMaxwell posted:

He must be tinkering in the garage Gordon

These are the little suckers at the bottom of the float bowl. Cheap enough to replace.

 For the sharp eyed, What's the difference??

 

mtflyr posted:

Glass vs Steel ball?

Bingo although l thought mine was plastic but can't be sure. Anyway,  l now have steel balls 

El Frazoo posted:

Quick update: fussed a fiddled with the one in there, carb cleaner all over the place, poked it with a stiff fine wire, (a strand from a wire brush works very well in this regard) riggled and jiggled, and got it to work -- sometimes. Is currently soaking in solvent.  Maybe it can be good.  Sitting at the bottom of the bowl like it does, its going to get whatever gunk goes in there. Sure would like to have new one, like tomorrow.

Get new one's, if you've been poking around inside it and cleared it. You may of damaged the setting area of the ball in the process. Or you may get lucky. You won't know for sure unless you get it all back together.

If you buy new don't get the ones without the exhaust hole in the side of the body, they're for single carb not dual... yours should have a number stamped on the side (.40 I think) order the same has you have either way.

There would appear to be only one sort, at least at CB Perf, and one other place I checked. Good for IDFs, regardless of vent size. $7, cheap.  Piperato says he has some laying about that he has ultrasonically cleaned, and will send to me by post by Monday.  Not sure I can score new ones in time to get me to Carlisle, which is overall goal at the moment.  Will end up cleaning and selecting best guess from ones on hand, and hope for the best.  Believe car will run reasonably well even if these are stuck open and all else is jake.  Transition throttle response is compromised a bit, but still works, or so I read. ANd note: we are talking about the valve at the bottom of the float chamber, sometimes called accelerator exhaust, or zero bypass valve and NOT the float valve at the top.

More data, this from AirCooled:

"Weber IDF Pump Exhaust Valve (Pump Squirter Zero Bypass Valve, or Pump Spill Valve), Size 0, EACH, 79701.000 sits in the bottom of the float bowl. This "Zero Bypass" valve sends ALL the gas pumped by the pump diaphragm to the squirter and into the engine, great for center mount carbs! The stock size is "50" or "55", but a lot of guys with center mount carbs will install this "0" in there to get all the gasoline to squirt, since the 0 bypass valve sends NONE back to the float bowl. This is size "0", which is the size some guys with center mount IDFs use for a bigger pump squirt. You need ONE of these for each carburetor, since one affects both barrels on the carburetor."

the "Stock" 50 or 55,  one might assume allows a 50% or 55% reflux, maybe.  Now just how f-ing complicated does this REALLY need to be? ANd I don't have center mount carbs in my "VW", so do I really want these "zeros" ?  And if I did put these in, would I get too much squirt, and then be AFU?  And maybe the ones I have in there are 50 or 55 (I'll check to see) and so should pass air in both directions.  Jeeeesh . . .  Shoulda stayed in bed.

And nowhere is there anybody who really knows what's what.  A pair of Dels sounds more and more like the right idea all the time.  These Webers, I am going to say, have been a nightmare from day One.  Or maybe a Soobie EFI.  Ahhhh, one can dream . . .

The one I have says 55, BTW.  Also Tomlison's Weber book has scant little on this except to say that the accelerator system has a "one way valve".  Nothing about different kinds.

And what about red rubber or black rubber for the accel jet diaphragm?  Seems I have both in the kits.  Had red in there from start, and I'll say that while seemed to be working (not leaking) when removed the rubber was kinda puckered.  So much to know . . . and the kits come w/ about zero information.