WTF?? -- Gas in the oil -- URGENT

OK, I'm the only one posting, to myself, I guess.  What the hell, maybe this will help someone someday.  Latest news to report is that the Gods of The Little Brass Thingies must have thought I had suffered enough these last couple of days and so decided to reveal to me where the Jet Doctor landed and was hiding.  Was able to see, then retrieve said brass thingie, with appropriate thanks and homage to said Gods, who have now spared me the trouble of lifting tins and going on a serious search.  Ever feel like you are being toyed with??

On a technical note, the rebuild kits I have are supplied with gaskets for 42, 44 and 48 size IDFs.  The gasket between the carb top and body is key here. Apparently, there are two kinds: one is very clever indeed and is cut such that you can put the gasket on the body and then lower the top w float attached, more or less easy.  The others are not cut so cleverly, and have no clearing for the float to drop in.  My guess here is that you have to place the gasket on the top w float unattached, then put the pin in the float hinge and have it all be jake.  Prefer the former kind, but only have one.  Will try cutting the latter kind w/ Xacto knife to see if I can mimic the easier kind.  I have several of the not-easy kind to f--- with.

Did you check the float settings ???  10mm between the float and the underside of the carb top with, gasket.  32mm in the drop position.

Well yes, but w/ out gasket on top.  Book does not say anything about a gasket or not. and Danny says 25 mm drop (~1") book says ~1.25", and this is what I have.  Gasket I am fixing to use is pretty thin, < 1 mm, I bet.  Will measure.  Nothing back together yet, so adjustments still available.

Theoretical question: just how often would you need full open on the float valve, i.e., full drop of the float?  Seems to me it will be just open in the barely leaking stage almost all of the time.

OK, found the right book.  What Alan has said is correct (as always).  The procedure is attached.

Measured gasket thickness at 0.020" (0.5 mm)

0.5mm out of 10 is 5%.  When doing basic rocket science, if we were within 5% we figured we had it nailed.  Just sayin' . . .

I made a simple plastic float checking tool that I keep with my wire jet cleaner. the 10mm end is long enough to reach across under each float. I also check it sideways as in the youtube videos.  

You've got a wire jet cleaner?

You MUST be running Webers.....   

Many (American) rebuild kits came with that float level strip.  Everyone should have one.  You don't use it often, but when you need it.........  Good job!

Kelly, we're reading your posts, but you're doing a pretty good job of answering your own questions!

"Theoretical question: just how often would you need full open on the float valve, i.e., full drop of the float?  Seems to me it will be just open in the barely leaking stage almost all of the time."

Depends on the fuel pressure and the rate at which the pump can replenish the bowl.  When running on the mains (throttle plate past the transition ports) I would expect the fuel level to be down 1/4" or so and sit there til you get your foot out of it.  The faster you run, the more it should drop in the bowl to level off at about 3/8" or so down on WOT (more-or-less equal to the amount of drop of the float, if the carb and fuel delivery system is designed well).

I seem to remember Pat Downs telling me that bigger engines with smaller (40-44) Dells have been heard of draining the bowls on really hard acceleration. (DOH!)

Drain the bowl??!  Those engines were running pretty rich, I'd guess, and then the issue of haulin' ass around a good turn and the fuel going sideways, and, well, this is old school were talking about here.  and as you look at it, that damn float takes up a goodly % of the total float chamber volume.  So OK, maybe I can see it.

Item 2. Piperato says he has an ultrasonic bath cleaner and he uses PineSol in it.  Claims it does a remarkable job cleaning carb parts.

Item 3: top plate gaskets: See below. Why anyone would make the solid (no float cut out) gaskets for repair here is beyond me.

Item 4, interesting observation here about my old float valve.  It is a simple solid brass piece, tapered at the end.  That's it.  The replacements in the kit are, and the references to same in various notes and instructions speak to,  a much more complex part, involving a spring loaded ball.  And as I mentioned, the tapered tip of the thing is rubber, or neoprene or viton, or some such.

Item 5 accel pump diaphragm: some in kits are red, some are black.  Some are single thickness, some are double.  The one that was in there was double thickness, red.  Looked to be swollen some due to, I guess, E85.  Using double thick black version this time.

wrt "you're doing a pretty good job of answering your own questions!" I can only hope.  Feels like I'm flying blind here, and looking for moral support, is all.

You'll get there I'm sure. 

The x2  diaphragms you have should have different centres.?? One for old Italian Weber's and one for new versions in the kit. Mine did at least.

"Piperato says he has an ultrasonic bath cleaner and he uses PineSol in it.  Claims it does a remarkable job cleaning carb parts."

Well, "Doc Brown" in "Back to the Future" did some pretty weird stuff, too, and he built a DeLorean with a "Flux Capacitor" in it.   I think may be Danny's on to something.  Give Danny a few years and longer, grayer hair, and they could be related:

El Frazoo posted:

The one I have says 55, BTW.  Also Tomlison's Weber book has scant little on this except to say that the accelerator system has a "one way valve".  Nothing about different kinds.

I'm pretty sure stock they come with 40's. So someone in the know has fitted the 55's. Best to keep them at 55 if your replacing them, if they ran good previously. 

Here's a link to explain how the exhaust spill valve works.

https://www.pegasusautoracing....on.asp?Product=79701

Dont forget  to give the pump jet holder screws a good blast with carb cleaner. They to have a ball valve in them also but are easier to flush out. If you get one pump jet out of the two per carb dripping then one has some crap in it so it can't seal.

Your  Flux Capacitor awaits you

Love that flux capacitor.  Meanwhile . . .

Might have found the smoking gun here,  Believe it to be the perfect gas law.  anybody know about that?, wherein a gas in an enclosed space will increase in pressure when it increases in temperature.  So that is at the bottom of this.  I have one carb out and the gas line to it sticking up in the air with a plug (a bolt) in it.  and this PM going about some gardening chores I smell fresh gas, stronger than it should be, and look under the car and so there is a small puddle, and the plugged gas line is leaking gas.  Well, as the topic line says: WTF, over??  Only one place that pressure to drive gas out this line could be: in the gas tank. I open said tank, and it gives a small whoosh of air going out when opened. Now, there is a small hose attached to the tank near the filler opening with a gizzie in it.  Said gizzie is yet another variation on the one way valve.  It seems to be working just fine, and I suppose its mission in life is to admit air into the tank as the gas is used up, but not let air (or gas fumes) out of the tank.  So, since last fall this thing let air in as things cooled down (we went to zero or less over the winter), but failed to let air/fumes out as things subsequently warmed up.  Pressure built up (tank is 1/2 to 3/4 full) and this pressurized the fuel system and pushed gas through the electric pump and on to the carbs, one or two of which had faulty float valve (s) and gas made its way under this pressure through the carb, down the intake, past an open valve, and into the crank case.

What would be a good way of not allowing this to happen in the future? One idea is to keep the tank tip top full in the winter, and I get that.  when the weather warms, go crack the filler cap and equalize the pressure now and then.  Leave the filler cap cracked so air can go in/out as it needs to. Install a solenoid switch in the line that is only open when the ignition is on, closed otherwise.  Do they make such things?? Whaddaya think?

Gas tank gizzie:

As to the accel exhaust valve, I have finally noodle this out -- see pic below.  I will say I totally missed this little hole up until this PM.  It is a 55, about the size of an idle jet.  I have ordered a couple of "zeros" from CB, and think that I should cancel that.  as to the jet size discussion given on the Pagasus site, it is very descriptive, and gets me fully educated on the business here, but I am going to say in all honesty: "You f-ing guys have GOT to be kidding, right??"  You "calibrate" your accel discharge by screwing various size bleed hole jets in and out until it all works properly?  Well f--- that, I say.  Where did somebody dream that up??  How about just adjusting the stroke dimension of the pump lever??  That's what the books say to do.  So the deal is to get properly working 0.55 mm bleed hole bypass jets in there and call it a day. Ahhh, "properly working", now there is the rub.  The one I took out I have cleaned to within an inch of its life and still, sometimes it clicks back and forth passing air or preventing it from passing when I blow on it, and sometimes it doesn't, passing the blown air in both directions, obviously hanging up. I do not know how to take the thing apart and examine its innards, or even if such an inspection is possible or prudent.  I suppose EFI is in absolute terms a more complex system, what with computer chips, computer code, high pressure fuel lines, electro-mechanical injectors and etc. etc. but I'm telling you now, these Weber carburetors are fiendishly obtuse.  It is now clearer than ever why they invented fuel injection.

The bleed hole. Hard to see on a quick look.

This one a "55"

Don't know what the ones from Piperato will be wrt bleed hole size.  Will find out tomorrow.

Kelly, should be there today before 3. And yes, Pine-Sol works great in an ultrasonic cleaner. Bio-degradable too.

The jets were really grungy, now not so much. They aren't new, pristine, and shiny, but they both work. And they are clean enough. The carbs they came out of were VERY dirty and grungy.

I wonder if you use Stabil in the fall? It at the very least pull the pump fuse and run the carbs dry. I do that with all my carbed stuff, if I can. Snowblower, lawnmower, Spyder. The weed-Wacker and leaf-blower don't let you.

I'm going back in the garage, for a short list of things to do today and tomorrow. Yup, new car will make it to Carlisle!

"What would be a good way of not allowing this to happen in the future?"

Well you could just remove said "gizzie".  You might occasionally smell some fumes, particularly after a fill up, but that's kinda normal for these cars.  Just a thought.

If it makes you feel any better, Dells have the same accelerator pump jet AND you can vary the discharge volume by twiddling both the jet size (course tuning) and actuator arm stroke (fine tuning and, especially, how soon the gas starts to squirt).  Same on Holly and Carters, too, I think.

The big deal with different accel jet sizes is to more closely correlate the added richness needed when the throttle butterfly passes across the transition ports on it's way to the Main jet port.  The transition ports are fixed in size/delivery, so you twiddle the accel jet size and stroke to compensate for the difference in idle and main jet sizes (both variable per different engine needs).  I just checked my notes and my Dells I just upgraded from .35 Accel jets to .55's to overcome transition bog, so your .55's are probably good to go.

I know you already knew all this - I just elaborated for Teby - He's a new guy on here.

Yes, Carburetor operational theory is obtuse.  Chris swears there is some magic involved - Druids, thrown chicken bones, VooDoo, all that stuff.  Not like good old EFI where you can see and adjust everything on your laptop or smaht-phone.  

If Carburetors were simple, everyone would know how to tune them!

The thing is, though.......Once you understand them and the obtuseness diminishes, they all work the same and you can figure them all out.  All they are is a fancy atomizer, like your old Aunt Gertrude had on her dressing table to spray her French perfume.

You seem to be well on your way to that point.  Pretty soon, you could become a Legend!

Or....get into French Perfume.  I'm jus' sayin'.....

I believe I read somewhere that the first internal combustion engine fuel atomizer was an actual perfume bottle sprayer.

And I bet it had sweet-smelling exhaust, too!

I thought first "carb"  was a straw in the side of a juice can.  Believe that would work.  Meanwhile, Danny sent me an apparently working 55 and 40.  The one that was in there is still a sometimes thing -- sometimes the ball flits back and forth like it should giving one-way operation, and sometimes it doesn't.  Believe I have enough to throw it all back together and see how it goes.

Rt side carb installed w/ Piperato-certified used but not abused 0.55 mm by-pass valve.  Lft hand side carb about half-way there.  This beast was a lot cleaner, as it does not "enjoy" a breather hose stuck down its throat.  Even so, there was gunk here and there, most notably (again, same for both) in the little filter compartment right where the gas comes in. Yucky-poo.  New float valve = major readjust to float settings, as was case for rt hand side.  PS: the 0.55 by-pass valve in this carb appears to be working fine.  Cleaned up well, and passes the puff test; it will go back in.

 Lots of cursing about little stuff, like getting the carb manifold nuts to thread on, dicking with the gas line clamps. and getting backwards about what can be put on first and then next to make life simpler.  W/ this ****, it's all about how to go out of your way to make life harder.  Tomorrow should see fire in the hold, um, er, I mean in the combustion chamber only.  I expect some smoke.  Also need to remember to put in some fresh oil. Other spring time chores completed as well, espy valve adjust and renew VC gaskets.  So by the time all this -- stuff -- is done, I should have a new 90 amp altr, and two thoroughly rebuilt carbs, fresh VC gaskets, valve adjust (they needed very little) and a really spotless crank case and innards, having been pressure cleaned with high test gas.

 Please say a small prayer (or a big one if you can manage it) that I can have a running engine again, w gas only atomized where its supposed to be, and reasonable throttle balance and idle jet tune.  At least good enough to make it to the Marriott Remote Plastic Care Facility in Carlisle on Thursday where any one of several Weber Whisperers can use my snail and their fine ears to work their mojo voodoo, and get things proper. Now, wouldn't that be nice??

Are you saying I should put perfume in the gas??

Le t's say this saga is all but done.  At 5:10 this PM all was back in place, elec fuel pump filled everything up, w/ no apparent leaks.  when turned off, the pressure held ~steady for at least 30 mins. Fired right up.  Made some smoke and pops out the tail pipe. Figured the muffler was full of gas/oil.  Sorta balanced the linkage and tweaked the idle stops and mixture setting.  All set to run around the neighborhood, but had to have a beer first. Tomorrow: heading for Carlisle.  Hope I make it.

PS: prayers appreciated.

Nothing like leaving it all to the last minute. Enjoy your beer 

Richard, if you only knew.  I left nothing to the last minute.  I had my project (new alternator) set well in advance and was done about a week or more ago.  On maiden voyage to verify alternator working properly, discovered crankcase full, and I mean full, of gas and whatever oil was there.  Car had been run a few weeks prior and aside from the alternator voltages being wrong, it ran fine.  Thence ensued all this last minute BS. Rebuilding the carbs to fix a leaky float valve, learning about accel jet bypass valves, and etc.  Plus trying to live my other life that is not all about this car. anyway, ran around the neighborhood this pm after reassembly with exhaust smoky (expected) and car running kinda sorta not very well -- unexpected.  It moves, but pops out the back,  stumbles a little and needs some TLC on its idle circuit.  I am at the point right now where only one of four responds to adjustments of the idle mixture needle valve.  This is very discouraging.  So far NOBODY has given me a proper explanation about why one or another cylinder would be totally insensitive to adjustments of this needle valve.  This is a not-uncommon occurrence. Vacuum leaks are offered as reasons, but if there is one here, it's because there is a undetectable crack or some other obtuse condition in these f-ing carbs, since the whole bloody business has just been totally taken apart cleaned with about a gallon of carb cleaner, and all gaskets and O-rings are new and in good order.  So like always, I am stumped.  But determined to run to PA tomorrow come hell or high water, and frankly, I expect the worst because this car, and by that I mean these god-awful Webers, never cease to disappoint.  Before the alternator went south, the car was running really great.  In a year, I get at best about a week or two of nice operation, then something weird goes wrong, and I'm back in fix-it mode.  Getting too old for this ****.  Sorry for the rant, you touched a nerve, and I think I only have the one left...

Kelly

I'll follow Cory, you follow me......I am talking about proverbial gas fumes. Maybe Glenn and/or Cory can help you tomorrow. Have a good sleep.

Paul

Godspeed, Kelly.

As you can tell from Maddie's Facebook post, I am firmly in the "We don't care which car you bring as long as you come" camp.  See you this afternoon.

Kelly,

An unresponsive cylinder is almost always either a plugged idle jet or a vacuum leak. The vacuum leaks are 99 times in 100 down at the base of the intake, at the joint between the intake manifold and the head, and are almost never detectable by any means besides removing and looking.

At that point, you will have torn the gasket and will need to spend an hour sanding on your head, scraping the old one off, and replacing with one of the 12 sets or so I'd always have in my stash (stored in ziplock bags to keep them from drying out).

... and you're right, I think you may not be wired for this stuff. There's no shame in that-- I think you would be much, much happier with a Subaru/Beck.

Stan: on manifold to head gasket: been there done that recently, should be good there.  Checked the two nuts each side, and they were still tight.  If the new gasket I put in there nice as you please, has gotten fritzed in the year since I replaced it, then I'm done with this engine.  I'd render it hopeless.  Has to be something else.

If the engine ever backfired between when you replaced the gasket and today, it could very easily be the gasket.

BTW:  Kelly had a rather large handful of surplus carb/manifold gaskets with him at Carlisle and provided any and all free to good homes.   

OK Stan copy that about backfires -- point well taken . None have been recorded, to my knowledge. Maybe a few Pops out the back due to dribbling idle jets enriching my Dynaflo, but not backfires, I don' think. Did tighten the new carb/manifold nuts after the run to Carlisle, and found I could snug them up a bit.  Cleaned two suspect idle jets, and things are much better now.  Still some room for improvement.  Car ran well enough, up and back to Carlisle without major incident.

Gordon:  the rebuild kits, as all must know, come suitable for IDF 42, 44, or 48, meaning that 2/3 of the gaskets are useless to me.

And another item: about the bypass accel jet valve brass thingie:  CB perf claims that the 0.55 mm bypass orifice is what Qebers used to be shipped with.  Nowadays, they say, all come with the "zeros", which is to say no by-pass hole at all.  Further, CB claims that everyone loves the zeros, and it is all that they sell.  Pegasus Performance (link above, I think) sells a wide range of by-pass orifices.  So, at the end of the day, I am still very confused about accel jet by-pass valves.  I put in the two 55s that I had that seemed to work.  I hope they have a long and happy life in their new home at the bottom of my float chambers.  On to next . . .

Stan -- As to wiring: I started on air-cooled in 1966, had two steel coupes, and learned plenty along the way -- so feel plenty well wired.  With basically no money, if something broke, 'twas me that fixed it.  A few notable exceptions along the way, so let's just say I collected more than a few tools along the way.  What has been beating me down with this engine configuration are the bloody Webers.  It just seems to always be something, and I am not sure in the ~ten years of this marriage they have ever been truly "right".  As to everything else about the engine, I would have to say that it has been fundamentally a stout machine.  I have blown out a valve cover gasket, which made a really lot of smoke; I busted some valve adjusters (operator error); breakerless point set went fritz; the alternator went out (cheap Chinese eqt??); and as you have read, the Gods conspired to push a lot of gas into my crankcase.  We could look at all of this as peripheral equipment failures, not affecting the internal workings.  I should be glad about that.  And I have heard that while the set of aggravations between air and water cooled will be very different, Soobies have their own, ummm, idiosyncrasies.