Yet another round of clutch questions

Well a few months have passed, so it must be time for me to experience another "anomaly" with my clutch. While enjoying the drive in the Smokies 2 weeks back I noticed that my pedal was not returning all the way up after a shift. It has somewhere between 1 and 2 inches of slack, but not exactly freeplay. I can pull it all the way up, and it will stay - in fact it will stay at any point that I put it in that range. I never noticed any problem with shifting, and even drove it a bit this past weekend.

I did climb under the car to verify that the external spring was still intact on the release arm, and it is still there and looks ok. I moved the clutch pedal back and forth, and the wing nut and release arm did not move. I have only about 1/4" of thread left to tighten the big wing nut any further. This is a fairly new cable, and I really don't believe that it is the problem. So here is what I have:

1. The cable appears to be a bit too long for the distance between the hook on the clutch pedal and the release arm.

2. The pedal could be rotating on the clutch pedal shaft. I will verify this by removing the access panel under the tunnel. I wish I had know that was there when I swapped the cable out.

3. I will attempt to check whether the release arm is ok, but I am not sure how to do that. Frankly I am afraid that I am about to be a victim of a broken release arm, meaning the engine has to come out. Oh joy.

Can't say this makes me happy. We're in some of the best driving weather of the year, and I don't want the car to be laid up until I can figure out how to fix this. I am envious of MUSBJIM, whose car seems to be unbreakable, and I hope that this is not the release arm itself. Sadly, that seems to fit the symptoms better than anything else. Ideas?

YIKES! I hope it isn't something too involved and just a simple fix!

Check your owner's manual.

Seriously -- if you put any pictures in that fancy book when you created it, the pictures would be of your car, right? It's also possible you took pictures of the clutch arm when your car was built at Carlisle -- point being, you could look at the arm and see if it's bent forward at all.
I know some are stronger than others, and since you have Carey's installed equipment, that cable ought to be perfect.
Since it's not, start with easy. If it's made of mild steel and supposed to be straight, it's probably bent forward about a half-inch at the tip.
Proper adjustment should be between a quarter- and half-inch at the pedal, and an eighth of an inch at the arm.
That's what mine is, anyway, and it's perfect.

Lane,

Mine was binding on the metal tube that leads to the Bowden tube. This caused it to unltimately fail. I kept tightening the wing nut hoping that I would fix the issue. After Carey's guy installed the new and improved cable, I still had issues. He took a hammer and bent the tube upwards to improve the exit angle and it solved the problem. Not sure if this is installed in Brazil or later. You would know better than I. If so, it may be a common problem.

Tom

Unfortunately no pictures of the clutch arm. I was awake since 5am diagnosing this in my head, and the clutch arm is the most likely suspect (dammit!). This weekend I will put the car up on jackstands and loosen he BWN (Big Wing Nut) and see if the arm moves. I don't expect it to if it is failing. I will also see if I can move it by hand. If the arm moves, then the clutch pedal is probably failing, but that seems unlikely. Since I posted the first entry in this thread I remembered a couple of "clunks" that occurred while shifting during the Smokies trip. That doesn't bode well, I'm afraid.

Re the pictures in the owners manual: There are around 60 of them - most of my car - but all of the underside shots were of new cars at Carey's shop as mine was a bit dirty underneath.

After looking at CB and cip1 clutch cross shafts I wonder if the release arm might just be slipping on the shaft. I didn't know how they were affixed to one another, but it looks like that could be a possibility that fits the symptoms - and that should be a LOT easier to fix because the engine wouldn't have to come out. Fingers are crossed. Toes too.

Anyone else had this sort of issue? Could it be due to over-tightening the BWN?

"Could it be due to over-tightening the BWN?"

No.

If you have only 1/4" of threads left on the Big Wing Nut (BWN) on the actuator arm, then the cable is failing (stretching), the pedal cross-shaft is out of alignment (see below) or the throw-out bearing actuator shaft is out of alignment or failing. I would simply remove the big wing nut entirely, then remove the pedal cluster and check for the following:

1. The clutch pedal is affixed to the cross shaft by press-on force (not much) and a pin through everything to hold it in relational place with the shaft. The pin could have sheared or is falling out (although unlikely, it happens) and that will exactly replicate your symptoms (falling short of the pedal rest buy random amounts, but able to be pulled back to the pedal stop w/o anything happening at the tranny). It also allows the cable to 'seem to be stretching' as the shaft rotates out of place with the pedal but catches on something to 'hold' it.

2. The other (tunnel) end of the pedal shaft has a toothed pall (a hook) which is supposed to be in the same attitude as the pedal arm (vertical when at rest). They often fatigue at either the hook itself (it simply tears apart at the cable loop) or at the point where the hook is welded to the shaft. I've noticed that the Asian shafts I've seen lately have the hook pressed onto the end of the shaft and then peened to hold it. In short, it doesn't hold long. The German ones are pressed onto the shaft and then welded and the hook fails before the weld does. (BTW: I've also seen few recent Asian ones actually fitting - too big or too small, so I always find a German one and stock a few spares).

If the pedal shaft checks out ok (which is a lot easier to check than pulling the engine), THEN I would look at the throw-out actuator. To play with that, and knowing your tool box, I usually use an 18+" pry bar or a piece of 1/2" ID rigid pipe, lash it to the actuator arm with hose clamps and use the pipe as a lever to move the arm and see what's what. A big pair of vice grips often works well, too, but can slip, so watch it.

Not ruling out the throw-out arm (we've seen several fail in the past few months on here) but it's easier to check the pedals first.

Also, since there's nothing much in the way with the pedals out and BWN removed, pull the clutch cable and check it out thorughly for anything obvious, grease it up really well (molybdenum automotive grease) and re-install it (you can never grease these things enough).

gn

P.S. I once had a cool little fitting for my dad's pneumatic greaser (BIG mother - held 20 gallons of grease at a whack and worked with compressed air - no pumping!) such that I could pull the clutch cable and then just shoot grease down the cable tube until it came out the other end. Worked great until I did one guys' beetle sedan and found out the hard way that his cable tube was rotted within the tunnel. Must have pumped over a gallon of grease in there before we caught it... |>(

Thanks, and I will check your suggestions. Both the pedal cluster and the cable date from this past spring, and I would be a little surprised if they were failing this soon. This is my fourth pedal cluster, by the way. I vaguely remember the pin holding the clutch pedal to the arm to have a small weld on it. I also greased the heck out of the new cable when I installed it, so I don't think it's binding.

I found a picture of the release arm orientation on other VWs and I think mine is a bit forward, indicating a problem either with the arm slipping on the cross shaft, or the cross shaft failing somehow. However, I won't know for sure until I get back under there. How exactly is the arm affixed to the cross shaft? I scanned the Samba forums but found no info on the possibility of slippage of the arm on the shaft, but if it's a separate piece - as it appears to be - such slippage is possible.

Here's hoping it's the pedal cluster (again?).

Lane, you mention that you are on your 4th pedal assembly. What was the reason for the other failures? That seems like a lot of failures for an assembly that is not known for frequent failure. Here is to a quick, easy solution. I know this must be frustrating, I've got my toes crossed too!

Will..... Lanes idea of a "cruise control" is an 8x16 cinder block.....The gas pedal has a permanent bow.....Pedal failure may indeed be appropriate.....Naaa!!!! But it sure reads good....;-)

Pedal assembly #1 was not properly QC'd in Brazil and had too much play. Carey replaced for free.

Pedal assembly #2 was fine until I decided a set of the cast (not billet as advertised) aluminum pedal covers would look good. They did, but drilling into the clutch pedal with it in the car was tough, and the vibration caused the pin to back out. I broke the assembly trying to get the pin out.

Pedal assembly #3 failed on the pot metal base where the accelerator attached. Hush, Leon ;-)

So now I'm on #4. One not properly rebuilt, one broken by yours truly, and one out and out failure - so far.

Gordon pretty much nailed it all......But I remember having a bug that had a similar problem when the clutch cable tube inside the tunnel broke loose from a mounting clip, which allowed the tube to bend and flex with the cable.....Not sure You even have one as the car is tube framed, but it might also explain the repeated problems in this area......Good luck....

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Saved by the Beck, to paraphrase a bit. I thoroughly check the release arm, and all seemed well. With the BWN loose I still couldn't pull out the slack in the cable, indicating pretty conclusively that it was binding. So I took advantage of the Beck's frame design and the access panels under the tunnel. I had to remove a bit of fiberglass used to semi-permanently affix (my new word of the week) the forward one, but it was worth the trouble. I could clearly get to the clutch pedal/cable connection where the problems became obvious.

1. Some wire I had used in a desperate attempt to keep the cable on the hook when I installed the cable had become wrapped around things, restricting pedal movement.

2. The cable tube appear to have been moved slightly out of alignment, causing the end of the cable to catch on it.

The good:

1. The fix was extremely easy - remove the wire and re-align the cable tube.

2. Replacing the cable is now an almost trivial undertaking as it can be done without removing the pedal cluster.

The bad, aka every silver lining has a cloud:

1. I am still concerned about the cable end catching on the tube. I may have to figure out how to shorten it a bit, or flare the end. Unfortunately it's welded in and there's not much room to work with.

2. That gorgeous Saco hydraulic clutch arrangement I bought last spring won't fit. The Beck frame doesn't use the tunnel for structural strength or to attach the suspension, so the tunnel ends at the front passenger compartment bulkhead, which at this spot seems to be a piece of heavy steel. The master cylinder would have to extend several inches forward of this bulkhead. It would be easier to use a different pedal and MC arrangement than to cut through there.

For now I will stick with the cable. Anyone with a pan-based car want to buy an opened, but unused Saco hydraulic clutch system?

That cable binding on the tube seems to be a fundamental design flaw. I'm taking Gordon's advice and shooting it full of grease this winter once it's up on the jack stands for the winter.

The tube is got so much grease in it that you could be mistaken into believing it's where all the missing BP oil went. The issue now is that the end of the cable where the stirrup-shaped end meets the cable itself catches on the end of the tube. The tolerance seems awfully tight there. The tube should be flared on the end, or a bit shorter so that it wouldn't be an issue. I plan to correct that in the very near future as it still catches on some shifts and could cause wear on the throwout bearing. I am wondering why this wasn't an issue with the earlier cable.

At least I now know how to make a cable change an easy task. I will recommend to Carey that they don't fiberglass the ends of the access panel, but just use the goop sealer they have on the sides. It's just sooooo much easier from underneath.

Can I uncross my toes now? Good job Lane! Now take it out and drive it on this beautiful day!

While you were in there, did you clean out the cinder block grit????......Glad to hear you nailed it.....

Apparently VW changed the forward mounting point of the clutch cable tube in the chassis at some point and thus used a different length cable eye at the pedal end. If you use a mismatched year cable it will bottom out on the tube before the clutch arm is fully released.

Unfortunately, this thread doesn't mention what year the switch was or which cable eyes are shorter: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4503684

And CB lists 6 different T1 clutch cables for different years.

If you pull on the clutch cable from the back until it's tight, and assuming your pedal stop is set right, you shouldn't have any free play at the pedal. If you do, you know the cable eye is bottoming out.

Lane - is there room to put a small pipe-flaring tool on the end of the tube?

I'm wondering that myself, Jim. I plan to hit the hardware store shortly and take a look at them to see. That looks like the best approach to me.

Got one that might fit, but I think the welded tab that holds the tube in place will interfere. That's a task for tomorrow.

Justin - Just read the thread you posted the link to and the next to last posting sure looks like the issue. I'll bet that's why the original cable didn't have this problem. Looks like I climb back under it tomorrow for round 2. Sure wish I had a decent shop where I could work on it regardless of daylight - or lack of it.

If a standard flare tool won't fit, you might try and old center punch, or any other tool that is hardened and has a nice taper at one end. Usually that tubing is pretty soft, and a little hand work with hardened tool can produce a decent semblence of a flare if you just work it a bit. Good Luck.

Re crossing toes....

Lane......If shortening the front of the tube would work, use "THE DREMEL WONDER TOOL" with miniature cut off wheel........You get the picture.........My .02.......

Cut off ~ 3/8" of the tube and flared it as much as I could (not much). Also ground the shoulder of the collar on the pedal end of the cable down to more of a rounded taper. No interference anymore. However, I didn't properly adjust the BWN before taking the car of the jackstands and getting myself cleaned up. Now it won't shift. Guess I was a bit tired by that point. I really need a lift, or at least a better floor jack. Guess I'll adjust it one evening this week.